macone Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 another clueless. could anyone please tell me which decoders to use for a zero1 and best place to perchase them.thanks john. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 They haven't been made for around 30 years. You might get them on Ebay or maybe at toy fairs. Their proper name is loco modules. They cannot be used with modern DCC systems with the one exception of the ZTC controller. Why do you want to use them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 macone said: another clueless. could anyone please tell me which decoders to use for a zero1 and best place to perchase them.thanks john. I still have some unused - even in original blister pack! Also accessory decoders, but I'm keeping my Micromimic Display! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macone Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 poliss said: They haven't been made for around 30 years. You might get them on Ebay or maybe at toy fairs. Their proper name is loco modules. They cannot be used with modern DCC systems with the one exception of the ZTC controller. Why do you want to use them? hi thanks for your reply, just purchased zero1 and i want to know if we can use the modern chips [r8249] in our old locos. thanks john. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 No, it's a completely different system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 We hope you didn't pay much, if anything, for the old Zero-1 as it is a long-discontinued product. Was it on a well k own auction website? A:though some have been waxing lyrical on here recently about Zero-1 (and I'm an ex user) it was not without its difficulties: Hornby deciding to change which directio was 'Forward' in the first few weeks [ nothing changes??? ](and the stick-on red labels), The original loco modules used Triacs, which sometime stayed turned 'On' into the next half-cycle (the other polarity/direction) resulting in smoking motors, and the decoders which worked again fter the capacitor was scaped off. The later revisions used 2 separate thyristers, and worked well, but Zero-1 used only 14 speed steps (as did MOST/ALL the following systems, until recently: nmraDCC, for example, adding 28 ans 128 speed steps to the specification, and increasing te number of locos from 16 via 99/127 to >9999. It also worked better when 'track' and 'Accessories' were powered from separate busses, to minimise interference. HOWEVER - there is no denying that it was well ahead of its time, and initially well supported by Hornby .... which makes it such a shame that there is no 'historical perspective' mention of it at the 'Hornby Experience' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macone Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 poliss said: No, it's a completely different system.does this mean its only fit for the bin. thanks john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 You could try selling it at a toy fair, Ebay or a boot sale. Your local museum might even be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Although it predates the legislation (by mny years): if it has reached its end of lifr, it ought to be recycled - there is a large lump of copper inside, making up the transformer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macone Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 poliss said: You could try selling it at a toy fair, Ebay or a boot sale. Your local museum might even be interested. love the reply at least we can laugh about it, but what is the point of anybody buying a zero 1 if there are no compatable modules, chips? to match up to the locos. thanks in antisipation of any replies john. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 'compatible' decoders ARE still available, apparently - I heard recently these non-hornby decoders have been 're-released'/ had another batch made: However unless you are 'locked in' to Zero-1, it would not be a good idea to start now. The original zero-1 chips could only driver motors with low-speed (50/60Hz) pulses - and then with different chips for 50Hz and 60Hz mins areas - hence noisy buzzing drive with less than 50% duty cycle at best! tHe new chips, which use 4-wire connections, as with nmra dcc, [being dual standard] will rectify the track power to dc, and then provide smoothed transitions between the 14 defined steps ... giving a much improved result, compared to the original H. Z-1 chips - and if you only hd 16 locos, its wasn't many to change! ... However, in the 2 years waiting for Zero-1 to be released, my locos had grown to 32, and by 'the end', I was having to reintroduce switched-isolation sidings to store multiple units that were awkward to lift off the lyout! Thnkfully the reltive price of decoders has fallen as time progressed: Zero-1 decoders were about 10GBP each 30 years ago. NOW decoders are at this same price, despite inflation! Dual Standard decoders tend to be higher priced ... for a lot of locos, a complete changeover was the only way! {and the stock has continued to grow!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macone Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Phil_Spiegel. said: 'compatible' decoders ARE still available, apparently - I heard recently these non-hornby decoders have been 're-released'/ had another batch made: However unless you are 'locked in' to Zero-1, it would not be a good idea to start now. The original zero-1 chips could only driver motors with low-speed (50/60Hz) pulses - and then with different chips for 50Hz and 60Hz mins areas - hence noisy buzzing drive with less than 50% duty cycle at best! tHe new chips, which use 4-wire connections, as with nmra dcc, [being dual standard] will rectify the track power to dc, and then provide smoothed transitions between the 14 defined steps ... giving a much improved result, compared to the original H. Z-1 chips - and if you only hd 16 locos, its wasn't many to change! ... However, in the 2 years waiting for Zero-1 to be released, my locos had grown to 32, and by 'the end', I was having to reintroduce switched-isolation sidings to store multiple units that were awkward to lift off the lyout! Thnkfully the reltive price of decoders has fallen as time progressed: Zero-1 decoders were about 10GBP each 30 years ago. NOW decoders are at this same price, despite inflation! Dual Standard decoders tend to be higher priced ... for a lot of locos, a complete changeover was the only way! {and the stock has continued to grow!] thanks for advise phil consider it recycled, we learn by our mistakes.john. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poliss Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Ne Zero-1 modules. Haven't heard of them. Can't find them on asearch. Where did you see them Phil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Phil: I was referring to the ZTC decoder modules- and what I described were the so-called 'compatible' types I bought when originally changing, via ZTC to dcc ... years ago. But I read recently that the new owner of ZTC had or had been requested to produce another batch of these... However, if they are the SAME as the orginal ZTC-Zero-1-compatible decoders, then they are NOT compatible with all nmraDCC controllers due to timing issues ... obviously here I am making the observation based on my experience and timing measurements with my ZTC Z1 decoders [and ZTC511 V4], which I have had to remove, as I no longer use ZTC, but use Roco Multimaus/ Centrale Pro. (also: When used with other handsets, after an emergency stop, ONLY the ZTC MASTER (511) could clear the STOP command, which meant walking back to the central control area each time!. I now have total flexibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macone Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Phil_Spiegel. said: I still have some unused - even in original blister pack! Also accessory decoders, but I'm keeping my Micromimic Display! hi phil but what is a micromimic and would you be prepared to sell me a zero one decoder to try before i recycle my zero 1 decoder. thanks john. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 macone said: Phil_Spiegel. said: I still have some unused - even in original blister pack! Also accessory decoders, but I'm keeping my Micromimic Display! hi phil but what is a micromimic and would you be prepared to sell me a zero one decoder to try before i recycle my zero 1 decoder. thanks john. Phil: You can see an illustration of my 2 metre long Micromimic Panel covering 130 Points and Signals (99 addresses) at this link: http://www.fillin.co.uk/Rail/BB/railway.htm along with some other info...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macone Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Phil_Spiegel. said: Phil: You can see an illustration of my 2 metre long Micromimic Panel covering 130 Points and Signals (99 addresses) at this link: http://www.fillin.co.uk/Rail/BB/railway.htm along with some other info...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macone Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 hi phil that link has just blown my mind but what about me perchasing your spare zero1 modules before i recycle.thanks john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I think a donation to charity is the best route ( that's what we arrangedlast time I provided somein with Zeero-1 modules a couple of years ago ) ... contact details re on my home page to the left of the LGB train 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenB Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hi Phil and all. As you have great experience on Micro Mimic use, I am after some advice. I am using Zero 1 on my new layout and have just finally got around to hooking up the Micro Mimic kit I have but I have an issue, the Console is not responding to Master Keyboard commands. The set up light goes off within a second of power up but no response to the Master keyboard presses. (The Console have new Backup Batteries fitted, have tried with and without) The Master controls the Locos and Accessory Modules fine, but their is an audible noise from the Accessory modules and Master. The Power Led on the Master also is flickering. Measuring the track output I see 7V DC as well as the 24v Track signal. Anyone with a Master could you tell me if you also have a flickering Power Led, i.e. is this normal with a faint ticking from the Master audible? My Zero 1 system = 1 x Master 2 x Slave 2 x Micro Mimic Displays 3 x Display modules Currently only 3 Accessory Modules 10 Loco modules 3 faulty Modules All currently just being tested on an oval of track whilst I build my base board up in the Loft! Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 RenB said: Hi Phil and all. (snipped) Darren Phil: An instant thought, after an interval of 30 years! - was there a comment in the instructions about reversing the phase of the track signal into the micromimic console??? (NOT i hasten to add, the 6.5V power supply to the COnsole, which has large and small ring connections to avoid misconnection). Otherwise disconnect the console, and recheck the standalone master is still working correctly. Due to the NON_SINUSOIDAL NATURE of the 18/20V squarewave ac on the track, A DIGITAL METER WILL GIVE incorrect values - as these are calibrated for sinewaves (UNless you are lucky enough to have FLUKE or similar quality meter: hence I would prefer to look at the waveform on a s'cope before making a judgement. I recall flickering LEDS or bulbs on colour light signals on accessory decoders as a standard feature of Zero-1 ... which I don't miss having change to dcc [ although I do have some buildings lit by 50Hz half-wave rectified for LED lighting which flickers because it is reflecting on white gloss paint ...very irritating, but off topic ] However, is this an 'unusually flickering flicker??? and not a local mains related problem at the moment? For those happy to work on the innards - the UK patent application from 30 years ago is freely downloadable, and contains an excellant description of the original Phase 1+2 (master, slaves and decoders) After replacig the batteries in the Mimic console, I assume you have RELEARNT the totl number of accessory decoders / display modules in use?? Also, I was annoyed when I first dicovered this requirement: Accessory Module numbering needed to be continuous without a gap or the MIMIC system could not handle it - you can leave LEDS OUT on Display Modules, and that position is then AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPED ... the same effect occurs if you have a bad/intermittant connection in the display cabling! ... the display modules are simply shift registers (and LED drivers) - and YOU must tell the software how many (addresses) there are: it then sends 2x that to clear the display, followed by the new pattern (2 for each 'address' as there is a LEFT and RIGHT output LED. WRT the 'dc' voltage, if really present, and not a confused meter! ... an inherant problem with Zero-1 was that all locos going 'to the right' for example, would be taking power at the same time, whilst there may be NONE moving the other way, taking power from that half-power cycle - resulting in load-tripping at a lower-than-expected current draw. - so lift off all locos, and recheck for DC; Alternatively remove the accessory decoders, as again in continuous mode they could possibly all be taking from 1 half cycle, and not the other (unlikely). As with nmraDCC, if using a 'Maplins' or similar Digital Meter, you can get a more accurate reading of (ac) track voltage on the DC range, by using a BRIDGE RECTIFIER (with the meter across the rectified middle path) I used to have an Iron-cored AC ammeter to monitor my Z-1 output! (and Peco Points motors took a lot! .. for crossovers I wired 2 points in series to halve the current to get it down to 3A) Fleischmann Point Motors operated well because they were/are end-off switching - they would change and then switch off. REGRETABLY - MUCH AS I ADMIRE MANY ASPECTS of Zero-1, having adopted it at launch, having moved on to DCC and regained smoooooththh control of locos, with additioanl functions ... and found a way or reusing much of my Micromimic (when not using an LCD screen)... I wouldn't revert to it today to control my trains (slightly more than 16 ! by a factor greater than 16. I had stretched the system to its liits with 130 sets of points/signals using 99 codes and about 30 decoders ... to keep the waveform shape I had to shorten the layout bus wiring AND remove the capacitors across the power inputs on the last few accessory decoders. I DID LEARN, very early on, to use a SEPARATE BUS for the TRACK and for the ACCESSORIES as otherwise passing trains could interfere with (change the points at) a nearby decoder. I also learnt to stop wearing a metal wriststrap ... 4 amps can warm your wrist quite quickly. Look at how home computing has changed in the same 30 years ... I'm now planning on using RaspberryPi's where once I would have used a BBC Micro ... kenneth Kendal speaking platform announcements anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Phil: Still waiting for John Macone to contact me by email (address on my homepage) to get a couple of decoders to try his newly aquired Zero-1. This recent discussion / revival has triggered my adding Robin Palmer's original patent application to my documentation - to add to Hornby's originally released Tch Info - copies of whic have been on the MERG members site for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenB Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hi Phil, Thanks for the reply. Yes it states correct polarity to the console (A-A, B-B). May try it inverted to see what occurs! The master does work fine still with accessory control and loco control working. When you say re-leart, do you mean all the LED'S connected? the instructions state when installing to connect to the master, ensure the Yellow LED goes out (it does)and then any number typed should display. Then connect the display modules etc etc. Or are you meaning something different? The power led on the master flicker does seem to flicker The patent info does not show where the power led is fed from. Further investigation's required on that one, tempted to get another master. Will grab my Scope out and have a look at the track output in more detail. The Only reason I am perusing the Zero 1 route is that I bought loads of the kit 15 years ago second hand seems a waste not to use it. Only have less than 10 locos and the cost of DCC is as silly as Zero 1 was when that was out. The loco decoders are nothing special but are very expensive. Controllers the same. May ditch the micro mimic display is I cant get it running and have to simply wire the LED'S up to switches on the bottom of the points! Basic loco control is good enough for me and the 1908's loco's I have at present. All good fun. Will keep you posted! Darren Phil_Spiegel. said: Phil: An instant thought, after an interval of 30 years! - was there a comment in the instructions about reversing the phase of the track signal into the micromimic console??? (NOT i hasten to add, the 6.5V power supply to the COnsole, which has large and small ring connections to avoid misconnection). Otherwise disconnect the console, and recheck the standalone master is still working correctly. Due to the NON_SINUSOIDAL NATURE of the 18/20V squarewave ac on the track, A DIGITAL METER WILL GIVE incorrect values - as these are calibrated for sinewaves (UNless you are lucky enough to have FLUKE or similar quality meter: hence I would prefer to look at the waveform on a s'cope before making a judgement. I recall flickering LEDS or bulbs on colour light signals on accessory decoders as a standard feature of Zero-1 ... which I don't miss having change to dcc [ although I do have some buildings lit by 50Hz half-wave rectified for LED lighting which flickers because it is reflecting on white gloss paint ...very irritating, but off topic ] However, is this an 'unusually flickering flicker??? and not a local mains related problem at the moment? For those happy to work on the innards - the UK patent application from 30 years ago is freely downloadable, and contains an excellant description of the original Phase 1+2 (master, slaves and decoders) After replacig the batteries in the Mimic console, I assume you have RELEARNT the totl number of accessory decoders / display modules in use?? Also, I was annoyed when I first dicovered this requirement: Accessory Module numbering needed to be continuous without a gap or the MIMIC system could not handle it - you can leave LEDS OUT on Display Modules, and that position is then AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPED ... the same effect occurs if you have a bad/intermittant connection in the display cabling! ... the display modules are simply shift registers (and LED drivers) - and YOU must tell the software how many (addresses) there are: it then sends 2x that to clear the display, followed by the new pattern (2 for each 'address' as there is a LEFT and RIGHT output LED. WRT the 'dc' voltage, if really present, and not a confused meter! ... an inherant problem with Zero-1 was that all locos going 'to the right' for example, would be taking power at the same time, whilst there may be NONE moving the other way, taking power from that half-power cycle - resulting in load-tripping at a lower-than-expected current draw. - so lift off all locos, and recheck for DC; Alternatively remove the accessory decoders, as again in continuous mode they could possibly all be taking from 1 half cycle, and not the other (unlikely). As with nmraDCC, if using a 'Maplins' or similar Digital Meter, you can get a more accurate reading of (ac) track voltage on the DC range, by using a BRIDGE RECTIFIER (with the meter across the rectified middle path) I used to have an Iron-cored AC ammeter to monitor my Z-1 output! (and Peco Points motors took a lot! .. for crossovers I wired 2 points in series to halve the current to get it down to 3A) Fleischmann Point Motors operated well because they were/are end-off switching - they would change and then switch off. REGRETABLY - MUCH AS I ADMIRE MANY ASPECTS of Zero-1, having adopted it at launch, having moved on to DCC and regained smoooooththh control of locos, with additioanl functions ... and found a way or reusing much of my Micromimic (when not using an LCD screen)... I wouldn't revert to it today to control my trains (slightly more than 16 ! by a factor greater than 16. I had stretched the system to its liits with 130 sets of points/signals using 99 codes and about 30 decoders ... to keep the waveform shape I had to shorten the layout bus wiring AND remove the capacitors across the power inputs on the last few accessory decoders. I DID LEARN, very early on, to use a SEPARATE BUS for the TRACK and for the ACCESSORIES as otherwise passing trains could interfere with (change the points at) a nearby decoder. I also learnt to stop wearing a metal wriststrap ... 4 amps can warm your wrist quite quickly. Look at how home computing has changed in the same 30 years ... I'm now planning on using RaspberryPi's where once I would have used a BBC Micro ... kenneth Kendal speaking platform announcements anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_Spiegel. Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 RenB said: Hi Phil, The master does work fine still with accessory control and loco control working. When you say re-leart, do you mean all the LED'S connected? the instructions state when installing to connect to the master, ensure the Yellow LED goes out (it does)and then any number typed should display. Then connect the display modules etc etc. Or are you meaning something different? I'm referring to the 'learning' part od setting up - where you have to tell the Console own many Display-LEDs are connected: it NEEDS to KNOW EXCACTLY how many there are, or the display will be meaningless! - hence any loose connection afterwards causes LEDs to be skipped and the display 'shifted' onto other LEDs. But it is a good starting sign that the display on top is showing the corrct last point/signal operated! ... th processor is working, and the power supply is probably okay ... so now it down to the display modules: test it with just 1 module full of 4 pairs of LEDS (left-right, EITHER top or bootom - so tht each address has a pair fitted, and 'learn that that is all ... then operate points 1 to 4 and see that the display module changes appropriately.... hopefully succcess .... then try adding 1 module at a time with 4 more LED pairs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bms Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have a number of decoders, say 3, a zero one controller, an "portable" extesion controller - no use to me now. In as seen condition - but not known to have stopped working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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