robert_allen Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Has anyone else had problems the new Monte Carlo's not counting laps with the Arc Air Pro? I have 4 new Monte Carlo's with 4 brand new chips in each car and they all have a problem with counting laps. I've tried several other types of cars such as GT3's and Daytona Prototypes and all other cars count correctly. For whatever reason the Monte Carlo's will skip several laps before counting a lap. It happens with the the Official App and the 3rd party app as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy P. Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Does this happen in both analog and digital mode?Have you tried removing the chips and running in pure analog mode?If the work in analog but not digital then you have probably got the IDs mixed up and need to be reassigned.Did you replace the guide blades with a different color (the power base only works with black)?Is there a (sharp) curve before the powerbase? Maybe the cars are not lined up to the sensors.Also, try taking the tires off the front and see if maybe the guide blade is not deep enough in the slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcote Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Hi Robert. I haven’t used the new Monte Carlos with ARC Pro. If all your other cars are working fine, it suggests you might need to tweak the cars or the track, The lap sensors are triggered by the guide breaking a infra-red beam in the slot and then the chip LED being picked up by other sensors. Both things have to happen to register a lap. These are some things that could be a problem: 1) if the powerbase is too close to a corner, the car can swing out. The guide registers, but the LED is too far away from the slot to register. Solution: move the powerbase a straight or half straight away from the corner exit. 2) if the powerbase is in a hard-acceleration zone, the front of the car can lift and the guide does not break the sensor effectively. Solution: move the powerbase nearer the end of a straight and/or put a little weight in the front of any specific cars that have problems. I have noticed the Chevys are suprisingly light. 3) if the guide sits a little high on the car, the guide won’t break the sensor effectively. Check on a loose piece of track and see where the bottom of the guide is sitting in the slot, compared with cars that record laps reliably. It could be the braids can be flattened or the front tyres need to be smaller. Solution: flatten the braids by un-tucking the rear fold of braid so both ends of each braid point backwards (if that makes sense?). Or try front tyres from your GT or DP cars to reduce the height and lower the guide. If you can ‘true’ tyres, you can reduce the diameter of the standard tyres. My hunch is that it’s one or more of those issues. I hope you get it sorted out - those are great cars. Let us know what you find. I will attempt to have a look myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 From images on the web it looks like the blade assembly is a long way forward of the DPR hatch which might mean that the IR LED is too far back to function correctly with the ARC PRO. I wonder if anyone can confirm correct functioning of these cars with the ARC PRO? For the ARC PRO to count laps two events need to happen simultaneously... the blade detect sensor needs to be triggered while at the sametime the IR LED on the underside needs to be above the IR detector (which is at the bottom of the slot)... for this to work correctly the rear edge of the blade assembly is usually just a few mm in front of the front of the DPR hatch. I wonder if these large cars meet the ARC PRO design requirements? If not it may be necessary to reposition the IR LED in the underpan rather than in the DPR module... C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_allen Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 DR_C Here's a pic of 2 cars together. The Monte Carlo is on the left and a Daytona Prototype on the right. /media/tinymce_upload/a7aac84052889f4a8d49bb22ee625f93.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcote Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 That’s an interesting question Dr_C. Is the ‘search’ for the LED by the powerbase that short lived? The hatch is within the normal parameters for chipping a car for older SSD powerbases and lane changers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy P. Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 That appears (eyeballing it) to be about a 5 mm difference from the DPR flap but the guide blade is much farther ahead...Does crossing at speed or slowly (push by hand) make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcote Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 The distance between guide and LED will definitely make the ‘tail-out’ issue I mentioned more acute. A slight bit of tail-out with the NASCAR will put the LED far further off the centre line than same amount of tail-out on the DP. That means missing the sensor is more likely. Andy’s idea of pushing the car over the sensors is a good one. You know the sensor will be lined-up with the LED and can tell if the distance/delay is an issue. If it consistently counts laps this way (there will be a slight delay), then look at if the cars are running straight over the powerbase in normal racing conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 To function correctly with the standard lap sensors fitted into the ARC PRO there is a critical distance between blade and centre line of the IR LED that is important... The distance between the back of the blade and the centre of the IR LED needs to be less than approx 19mm. Also, this measurement assumes the IR LED is more rear-ward than the blade. From the photos I suspect that the Monto Carlo does not meet, or is marginal, with respect to this distance requirement. This would explain why laps are being missed. It would be helpful if Scalextric could check compatibily of the Monto Carlos with a DPR module fitted with the ARC PRO please? If not compatible using a DPR module then drilling 3mm hole and repositioning the IR LED may be necessary... C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_allen Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 To function correctly with the standard lap sensors fitted into the ARC PRO there is a critical distance between blade and centre line of the IR LED that is important... The distance between the back of the blade and the centre of the IR LED needs to be less than approx 19mm. Also, this measurement assumes the IR LED is more rear-ward than the blade. From the photos I suspect that the Monto Carlo does not meet, or is marginal, with respect to this distance requirement. This would explain why laps are being missed. It would be helpful if Scalextric could check compatibily of the Monto Carlos with a DPR module fitted with the ARC PRO please? If not compatible using a DPR module then drilling 3mm hole and repositioning the IR LED may be necessary... C I just measured the distance between the back of the guide flag to the middle of the IR LED. The distance is 22.35 mm. Doesn't Scalextric test this kind of thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Very puzzling that the gap between the guide blade assembly and the DPR hatch is so large... I can see that the front axle would coincide with the hatch if it was further forward... but a betterdesign solution for compatibiity with the ARC PRO would, in my opinion, have been a split axle approach as used in the BMC minis. To confirm this diagnosis, you could run the car by hand across the start line (and remember you need to cross the exit sensor too). Then, temporarily extend the length of the blade using black pvc tape... and try again. The test here is bringing the rear edge of the blade closer to the IR LED... thereby improving the dual triggering of the lap sensor configuration. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy P. Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Just a minute gents... Where the IR LED is is immaterial in analog mode.Could we please get an answer if it is an issue in analog as well as digital ?Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 yes... good point... 1/ Is the lap counting problem digital only or both digital and analog.2/ elsewhere (sf) I saw reference to pacer cars... is the counting problem occuring for driver controlled cars (as opposed to pacer cars)? Many thanks and looking forward to your response, C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_allen Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Ok.1: I just gave the cars a try in Analog mode and the cars count laps correctly.2: The counting problem is with both Pace cars and human controlled cars in Digital mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy P. Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 OK...Final question(s): Have you tried the chips in other cars to rule out there isn't a problem with the chips?Have you tested the mods that Dr_C mentioned? (lengthening the guide blade with black tape)Also, can you visually inspect if the LED is seated low in in the car? Compare it to the Protoypes that work.It could be you got a bad batch where the LEDs are not seated properly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Hi all, yes, Andy Ps suggestion is the sensible next step... try adding the black pvc tape to extend the back of the blade so that it finshes 10mm in front of the IR LED... this should then enable digital lap counting! if this sorts the problem, as I expect it will, next step will be to permanently reposition the IR LED... I or others can then talk you through what would be required... but first it makes sense to carry out the test with black tape which would confirm we are on the right track with our diagnostic... C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy P. Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Could you provide us with more information please?What is the revision number of your hardware (it is viewable in the APP)?What version of the software are you using?What revision are the digital chips you are using (likely G or H)?Rev G chips have a large capacitor mounted to the PCB (yellow/blue packaging), Rev H have all nice small surface mounted components (grey packaging).Could you also upload a picture of where the powerbase is located on the track?There could be a combination of issues that have created a "perfect storm" here...Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_allen Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 OK...Final question(s): Have you tried the chips in other cars to rule out there isn't a problem with the chips?Have you tested the mods that Dr_C mentioned? (lengthening the guide blade with black tape)Also, can you visually inspect if the LED is seated low in in the car? Compare it to the Protoypes that work.It could be you got a bad batch where the LEDs are not seated properly...1: The chips were actually the first thing I tried. Made no difference.2: haven't tried the tape thing yet. Will try tommorow.3: LED's are seated the same as the Protoypes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_allen Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 Could you provide us with more information please?What is the revision number of your hardware (it is viewable in the APP)?What version of the software are you using?What revision are the digital chips you are using (likely G or H)?Rev G chips have a large capacitor mounted to the PCB (yellow/blue packaging), Rev H have all nice small surface mounted components (grey packaging).Could you also upload a picture of where the powerbase is located on the track?There could be a combination of issues that have created a "perfect storm" here...ThanksI'll take some pictures tommorow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 photos will be useful... but I personally believe the black pvc tape test will nail it. Might you give this a try too? C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_allen Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 photos will be useful... but I personally believe the black pvc tape test will nail it. Might you give this a try too? CHi. I tried the black electrical tape on the guide. I added an extra 5mm to the original length of the guide making the distance from the end of the modified guide to the LED approximately 15mm. It counted laps perfectly. No missed laps at all. The only problem now is the the tape added enough width to the guide that it now gets stuck at some sections of the track. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Interesting... So it looks like three options... 1/ contact Scalextric custimer services to ask for advice quoting how temporarily lengthening the blade corrects the problem... but causes other problems... 2/ re-position the IR LED 10mm behind the blade assembly by drilling a 3mm hole and soldering the LED onto a flying lead. 3/ I wonder if a slot.it blade, perhaps a SICH10, which has a longer tail end... might solve the problem... if it fits? C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert_allen Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 Interesting... So it looks like three options... 1/ contact Scalextric custimer services to ask for advice quoting how temporarily lengthening the blade corrects the problem... but causes other problems... 2/ re-position the IR LED 10mm behind the blade assembly by drilling a 3mm hole and soldering the LED onto a flying lead. 3/ I wonder if a slot.it blade, perhaps a SICH10, which has a longer tail end... might solve the problem... if it fits? CI have sent an enquiry to Customer Service and will wait for a response. Thanks again for all your suggestions.I'm not keen on drilling a new hole and refitting the electronics. I don't feel I should have to do this with a newley released car. Should work right out of the box after installing a chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_C Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 I have done all the calculations in terms of different blade to LED gaps and how this will reduce readability of car IDs with the ARC PRO powerbase. High IDs and fast cars will be affected most as the gap approaches limits. I could share the calculations here but would rather validate with a wide range of experimental trials before I do so. However I did do quite a lot of testing when I developed, for my own use, a more advanced sensor areangement for the ARC PRO. Hope you receive a useful response from Customer Services... please keep us posted... C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy P. Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 In order for us to ge tthe bottom of this could you please answer the questions I posted about APP and hardware version, chip revisions etc?Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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