Controlling Heljan DCC Tuntable with RailMaster.

[Chrissaf]

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/turntable-control/?p=1/#post-96776

 

Gitter, take a look at this post started by yelrow just over 4 years ago.  I thought his TT might be Heljan but it is Frateschi, However there is a lot of discussion in the thread about controlling TTs with RM and you may get some clues.  I think Heljan even gets a mention along the way.

[Chrissaf]

I've just had a look at the Heljan TT Manual online. Yes it is DCC compatible (well at least the manual gives that impression). But the manual spends 80% of the text focusing on using the integrated manual controller that comes with it. The manual is not an easy read, and I am saying that as someone who doesn't normally baulk at reading and understanding DCC manuals. After looking at the manual, I have decided to step back from offering any theoretical support. I feel that you need support from a user who is actually using one of these.

[Chrissaf]

Bought a  Tuntable ( Heljan dcc 89121 ) from Rails of Shefield.  Arrived yesterday, great service and good price. Installed and programmed with no problems. I would like it to control it from Rm. Its there anyone on forum who has achieved this and would be able to give me some advice on it. I saw an old post by PapaJulietDelta from 2013 , but this has not worked for me. Bearing in mind that I can be quite dense at times, with little or no effort, any advice would be appreciated.

[Gitter]

Hi Fishie, Yes, I have seen snippets of this thread before, but nothing which clears the mist for me.  I am going to  try and digest  papajuliets' explanation as to how he made it work, when I go back to it tomorrow.   thanks for your input.

[Gitter]

Hi Chris, yes I know what you mean about the manual being a bit confusing. As I said , it turned out to be quite easy. calibrate , programme each entry and your there basically. Probably easier when you have it physically in front of you. I put in to my track plan the turntable with the red & green point buttons, but I'm going to have to look at the dcc address and accessory address' for each road. also I want to turn off points positioning to defaults on start-up. I don't see points default in my ini file. I do see default curve listed.  It's quite encouraging to know that  people have made it work. It operates great and getting it into Rm ' will be fantastic. Chris, thanks for coming in .

[Rog RJ]

Maybe "branding" should be "branching"

[96RAF]

Accessory decoder sub addressing and programming is not for the faint hearted. I have given it a swerve. Usually used for tying multi-aspect signals to a single main address. NMRA documentation on the subject makes for a headache.

[Chrissaf]

This may help you. I got enough clues from watching the YouTube video (link further below) that gave me enough info (confidence) to better understand the Heljan manual.

.

On page 93 of the RM manual it states that the Heljan TT is supported by affixing point operating icons to the entry and exit tracks of the TT. Point button icons not shown in the image below.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/a5eb86a8c99d237f9dc7f7ffd9e702bd.jpg

.

Now turning to the Heljan manual. The TT uses point accessory addresses. Each of the accessory addresses configured caters for two entry/exit track positions. Once a point address is selected. Then the turn left and turn right commands define which of the two associated entry/exit track positions are selected.The default Accessory address range is 225 to 249 (248 is the highest selectable on the Heljan TT controller). So assuming 225 to 248 as being the realistically usable range, then that gives 46 possible entry/exit track positions. Personally, I would stick with the Heljan default Accessory Addressing range. It can be changed, but the maths needed to do it that is documented in the manual looks daunting (complicated).

.

Table from Heljan manual.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/7f8a83d19c33bb98b3b729ffa93950f8.jpg

.

For "branding" and "straight on" consider these terms as being equivalent to 'left and right' OR 'right and left' point accessory commands. Never heard of the "branding" term before, so not sure which is 'left' and which is 'right'.

.

Let's say for example that the bridge is currently at TT track entry/exit position 5 [address 227 'branding'] and you want to move it to track entry/exit position 13 [address 231 'branding']. I am assuming that you would select Accessory Address 231 and send either a 'turn left' or 'turn right' command (whichever of these is equivalent to the term "branding" in the table above).

.

Now in reality, you may only have a few track entry/exit points. So you wont be assigning your Accessory Addresses sequentially. Using my example above. You might have one entry/exit track positions at address 225, then one track position at address 227, then the one track positions at address 231. Thus in this example scenario, position addresses 226, 228, 229 & 230 would not be assigned to any TT entry/exit tracks.

.

I am assuming here that the potential 46 track entry/exit positions are only a few degrees apart, thus you cannot physically get that many tracks attached to the TT. This then means that realistically, each Accessory Address will equate to one physical entry/exit track, at either the 'branding' position OR the 'straight on' position, but not both 'branding & straight on' positions together for the same Accessory Address else the tracks would physically overlap.

.

EDIT: I had this latest thought after a nights sleep, so as an alternative to the paragraphs directly above I am now adding this following italic text in an edited fresh repost.

.

Alternatively to my assumption and theory above. If there are indeed 46 potential physical locations spread around the TT where tracks could be placed. Then the Heljan TT manual controller would have the ability to set the bridge to any one of them. Thus internally the controller has 46 potential positions in its memory. But since you have to set up the Heljan controller to (in essence) train it to use the just the positions that you physically want to use. So let's say out of the 46 positions you train it to only use positions 4, 9, 13, 20, 28 & 35. Then maybe when using DCC commands. The position 1 in the DCC command table is translated by the Heljan controller as being physical position 4. DCC position 2 becomes Heljan position 9. DCC position 3 becomes Heljan position 13 and so on to DCC position 6 becoming Heljan position 35. To me this makes more logical sense of the DCC command table. The DCC table still has the potential for all 46 positions, because of the first sentence above i.e the possibility that there are indeed 46 potential physical and usable track positions. This is just a thought, some experimentation with the actual product is needed to confirm which of the two theories are correct (if any). This one plus the original assumption previously posted.

.

OK this YouTube is not Hornby RailMaster, but it is the Heljan 89121 being configured to work with a PC based DCC controller. If the info contained in the video is watched in conjunction with my theory above. The two taken together should help move you towards your goal of setting this up in RM.

.

.

Apologies for finding a YouTube with an annoying ambient music background sound track.

.

Let us all know if you get this configured in the RM track plan and include some screen shots of the TT with point buttons applied in the track plan for the future benefit of others.

.

Not sure if there is space for lots of point buttons for a TT, but the RM manual seems to think it is doable in the yellow highlighted text section.

 .

 ..........also I want to turn off points positioning to defaults on start-up. I don't see points default in my ini file.

.

Its a ticked check box on the 'System Settings' screen to the right of the 'Start up track plan' text box. If you untick this check box you won't see your blue/grey point position indicators until a point is operated.

.

You have two options.

.

1. Create a 'Program' that sets all the actual physical points, that you can run manually before you start using the layout. This program would of course omit to include the point addresses used for the TT.
2. The other option (if you have RM ProPack) is to set the 'start up firing' order number to zero ( 0 ) in the point button configuration box. I believe in RM ProPack, a zero value makes the 'set points at start up' routine ignore that particular point.

.

[Gitter]

I saw the start of this Vid', but switched it off, probably because of the background music. Pity really because it is quite informative , and not far away from my thinking in bed last night, when going over the Heljan manual ( ? ) again. Working with Rm Pro, so I'll try that zero on t/t  in points when firing up.  I am going to change my t/t entry / exit positions when I go up later, and the try to see how new thinking turns out in practice.             Rob. You are right about the programming , setting address'  . I never had any inclination to get into it, and I'm regretting it a bit now. I could probably take a Black 5 down to bits, diagnose faults and rebuild it, but no way, will I ever be any good with a computer.  On second thoughts , forget about the Loco o'haul. Far too dirty and heavy. I'm enjoying retirement. I will also have to print- off latest Rm manual, as I don't have  Rm info on Page 93.

[Chrissaf]

Maybe "branding" should be "branching"

.

Good thought......that makes sense.....so it is not just Hornby that produce poor documentation. But you would have thought that Heljan would have picked up the error in such a prominently placed piece of text.

[Chrissaf]

Working with Rm Pro, so I'll try that zero on t/t  in points when firing up. ............... I will also have to print- off latest Rm manual, as I don't have  Rm info on Page 93.

.

In that case you won't have the info on Page 91 either if you are using an old paper manual. Rather than printing off the latest version 1.70 manual. View it as a PDF then you can use "Control + F" to open the search box to find things. So much easier than reading 'cover to cover' to find that elusive command.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/ad93c69b7294a430e8fb393ab30755a6.jpg

[Gitter]

Ah Bisto !  well that wasn't a bad experience. Re-positioned my branches on t/t , deciding to have just the 3. Went onto turntable control to scrub old programmes,  you have run bridge to pos '1 then press delete ( no confimation  shown ) ,then do the same with other settings you no longer req. Prog' bridge to new branch positions. (no problem ). Using Heljan decoder default address   57  applies itself to pos 1: acc address 225 ,  pos 2 : address 226, and so on . Back to Rm planning screen and put in acc addresses on point button labels. Save .Test. and Bob's your uncle.                  I'm really pleased with it.

[Chrissaf]

So just to reiterate for clarity. If I have understood you correctly.

.

Although the Heljan TT and integrated controller has 46 potential positions. Only the ones that are configured in the Heljan controller are associated with the DCC Accessory addresses.

.

So for example if on the Heljan

.

If Heljan Controller Track Position 1 is actually physical Track position 5

If Heljan Controller Track Position 2 is actually physical Track position 12

If Heljan Controller Track Position 3 is actually physical Track position 20

.

then

.

Heljan Controller Track Position 1 is assigned DCC Accessory Address 225

Heljan Controller Track Position 2 is assigned DCC Accessory Address 226

Heljan Controller Track Position 3 is assigned DCC Accessory Address 227

.

Assuming this understanding is correct, how does the point 'switch left' and 'switch right' buttons interact with the TT movement?. In other words once you call up the Accessory Address for the TT position you want i.e 226. What do you have to do to make the TT move to it?

.

Supplementary question. When you were configuring the point operating button icons in the RM 'Track Designer' screen. Which decoder did you choose in the 'pull down' decoder selection box?

.

Gitter, I know this is extra work for you. But I'm sure others that follow will benefit from it if they need to install a Heljan TT. I am adding this thread to my 'boilerplate' document so that I can post a link to it, if the question gets raised again.

.

Could you post a screen shot of your TT and point buttons from the track plan & an example point button configuration dialogue window panel showing the settings (use the black & white hill icon in the reply window tool box). And add some 'step by step' instructions of exactly the steps you took to set it up in RM, in a 'dummies guide' format.

.

It would be appreciated, I am sure.

[Gitter]

position. yes Chris that's exactly how it works out.  As far as the direction of bridge travel, it mostly runs c/wise, and I think that is down to the reflector being at the cabin end of the bridge,and where the bridge/cabin is in relation to the eye.      I will try to get images  tomorrow. 

[Gitter]

/media/tinymce_upload/d482eb1f9a2d226c16d0390e5a439b2a.jpg

[Gitter]

/media/tinymce_upload/b1e499438aa8c4c06d3718f2cccae436.jpg

[Chrissaf]

Gitter, two of my previous questions I asked, you haven't yet answered. But I think I might have an answer for one of them (just needs you to confirm if my answer is correct or not).

.

1. I asked "What Accessory Decoder did you choose in the pull down list in the point button dialogue box in the track design screen?".
2. I also asked, "What action does pressing the point operating icons have?".

.

With regard Q2. Is this what happens?

.

Pressing one of the point operating icon buttons, the turntable bridge turns to the TT exit track that was selected by the DCC Accessory address, such that the loco sitting on the bridge can drive out onto the exit track in a forward direction.

.

But pressing the other point operating icon button, the turntable bridge turns to the TT exit track that was selected by the DCC Accessory address, such that the loco sitting on the bridge can drive out onto the exit track in a reverse direction. In other words, the TT bridge finishes its turn, facing 180° round compared to the finished position when pressing the first point operating button above.

.

The Heljan manual says there are a maximum of 48 position memories, but it also makes a point in bold text (see image below) that whenever a 'stop' position is configured, that another position is automatically created 180° to the first. This would mean (if logic is applied) that there are up to 24 actual physical exit/entry points that could be configured in memory, but each one is doubled to provide the 180° position as well, thus 48 position memories would be utilised for 24 track positions.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/fd00e4d03029712a7fa614fe7b15ce4c.jpg

.

 

[papajulietdelta]

Hi.

Sorry, late to see this thread.

You seem to be sorted Glitter.

My Heljan is still working fine.  I have five roads to it, with accessory numbers 225 to 229.  I set them up as ESU Switchpilot 4 port decoders, as they were what I was using for points at the time (changed to Tawcraft and DCCconcepts ADS-2fs).  I put the arrow buttons at each end of the table positions.  Hence clicking the other one from the current position, causes the deck to rotate through 360 deg.

Occasionally, the table gets confused and has to be reset.  I guess that you have worked out how to set the positions. For my 5 roads, I position the table at road 1 and set it as 3, move to road 2, set it as 4, and so on such that road 5 is set as 7.  Then I delete positions 1 and 2, such that 3 becomes 1, and so on, such that 7 becomes 5.  A bit complicated.

I actually had some problems with point decoders firing when I selected turnable tracks.  My points are in the range 3 to 44.  I can't remember exactly which ones, in the range 29 to 44.

I have now given up driving my trains with Railmaster and have sold my rather toyish Elite.  I now use a NCE Procab with a computer interface connected to JMRI.  However, I still use Railmaster through an Elink to work the points and signals.  I had put in seperate buses for the track and accessories.  I left the Heljan on the track bus, so no longer control it with Railmaster.  It works perfectly with the NCE or JMRI.  I can also connect the accessory bus directly to the track and use NCE or JMRI to control the points, if I do not want to fire up Railmaster.  In this configuration, there does not appear to be any points firing when I move the turntable.

Originally, I had two copies of Railmaster and used a network connection between the two computers at each end of my loft.  However, I found this very flakey, particularly with sound functions. While fine from the main unit connected through an Elite, the satellite was unable to send the functions.

However, I solved this by using Teamviewer instead, as a LAN only connection.  Brilliant. the trackplans on both computers are in sync and all the sound functions worked.  In this setup, you only need one copy of Railmaster!

I have updated to 1.70.1.  All fine.  I now have both the Railmaster trackplan on screen and JMRI throttles (better I believe, than RM).  That is, I have two usb connections from the main computer, to the Elink and NCE interface, both running smoothly.  Then via Teamviewer, I have a duplicate of the controls on my satellite computer.  All works extremely well.

Cheers

[papajulietdelta]

Correction:

Hence clicking the other one from the current position, causes the deck to rotate through 180 deg.

[Gitter]

Hi , sorry I was so slow getting back to you,out all day.  I used the Esu  SwitchPilot 4 port decoder as well.  Yes you are  correct in what you are saying about positioning. What I have been trying to ascertain is, is the direction of rotation determined by which button ( red or green ) is selected ? On my set-up , it does not appear to be the case .         I'm going to have play about with it to see if I can find out what determines direction . Would it be the photo cell, which is on the opposite end of the bridge from cabin. Acc'decoder? Any idea / suggestion.  

Papa, I'm struggling to take in your programming of t/t. I will have to get somewhere where there are no distractions. Up here in the loft I turn my head , see something, and my mind goes on one of these "mystery tours" that the the local bus companies used to do, back when the world appeared to be civilised. I must say say I'm surprised you got rid of the Elite in favour of an E-link. I had points firing on layout , before I got round to giving Rm the accessory adresses.  I see what you have done on your programming , but I can,t see why. Have to give it more thought, I'm not good at computer programming etc. 

[Chrissaf]

I'm going to have play about with it to see if I can find out what determines direction.......... Any idea / suggestion.

.

Could it be something as simple as which is the shortest directional path to get to the destination entry/exit track that has been chosen. After all, the Heljan controller is in essence a computer using a digital 'stepping motor'. Therefore it is logical to assume that internally it can make dynamic choice decisions regarding how may 'steps' does the motor have to make if it goes 'clockwise' compared to how many steps the motor has to take if it goes 'anti-clockwise' to reach the target outlet track. The direction with the least number of steps to be taken wins.

.

Although for me, the whole exercise has been a cerebral one. I have found your original posted question both 'challenging' and 'interesting'. I have learn't a lot about the Heljan TT in trying to help you with it. So thank you for posting it.

[Gitter]

Chris, can you edit that duplicated post out please.

Thanks Chris & others for your input. It was a surprise for me that I got it  working without a lot of head banging off baseboard. 

[Chrissaf]

Duplicate removed as requested.

[St1ngr4y]

I'm going to have play about with it to see if I can find out what determines direction.......... Any idea / suggestion.

.

Could it be something as simple as which is the shortest directional path to get to the destination entry/exit track that has been chosen. After all, the Heljan controller is in essence a computer using a digital 'stepping motor'. Therefore it is logical to assume that internally it can make dynamic choice decisions regarding how may 'steps' does the motor have to make if it goes 'clockwise' compared to how many steps the motor has to take if it goes 'anti-clockwise' to reach the target outlet track. The direction with the least number of steps to be taken wins.

.

 

But what if that isn't what the user wants. Taking the shortest number of steps might result in the engine going into the shed forwards, when the user wanted backwards, or vice versa.  😉

 

Ray

[Chrissaf]

Ray,

Read my post at 10:37 and Gitter's reply at 20:42 on Page 2. Gitter confirms in his reply that my previous Q2 answer is correct.

.

The left and right point operating buttons, define whether the bridge turns to allow the loco to exit forward or exit in reverse. Thus the suggested shortest path logic (yet to be proven) would take that into account as part of the controller 'path to take' decision making process.

.

As far as I can see. This Heljan TT product seems to be very sophisticated with its micro-processor based digital controller.