Digital control of points

[MarcB]

Hi,

I'm a novice currently building a layout using trains from my childhood, 40 yrs ago.

The trains are clearly analogue, and am using analogue controllers.

The layout has 14 points, and I'm wondering if I can use a seperate Digital controller for these points, and other accessories i.e. lights, etc. 

If so what controller and other Hornby equipment is required ?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chrissaf]

What kind of lights?......signalling lights or general layout lighting such as platform / street lighting and/or building interiors.

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To be frank and brutally honest I really can't see any benefit, neither practical or financial for using DCC just to control points and signalling lights.....without including the locos.

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Unless you go computer controlled, you're going to spend so much time faffing around remembering and selecting the appropriate DCC address for a particular accessory (whether that is a point or a signal) that in the time taken to operate one of those through DCC, you could set up a whole route through multiple points and signals using traditional analogue electrical switches.

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You could build a very comprehensive analogue point and signal control system for a fraction of the cost of doing it digitally via DCC.

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If your original question related to generic layout lighting, then I would always recommend doing that separately and not via DCC control.

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It is the control of the locos where DCC comes into its own, not the points and accessories (IMHO)........it can do points and signals but not efficiently, unless under computerised programmed control.

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TIP: As this is your very first post, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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[Flashbang]

Hi

Just to add to Chrissaf reply,,,, Note: You cannot connect a DC controller directly to the same wires or rails that feed a DCC system. You must keep the two systems totally separate.  

You could run a completely separate bus pair of wires fed from a totally separate DCC console and then feed all accessory decoders from that bus pair, but that is a very expensive way to go!  Cost would involve a DCC system plus accessory decoders.

Consider operating accessories via conventional switches and separate power supplies.

Or if you're electronically minded, look at the self build kits offered by MERG (Need to join) especially their CBus system https://www.merg.org.uk/

 

[Rog RJ]

I'm in full agreement with Chris.

 

DCC is great for loco control but I think the majority of DCC users prefer analogue/old fashioned switches for point and lighting control, it's just so much easier and simpler.  I would only use DCC control of points and accessories if I was using, or was intending to use computer control.

[MarcB]

Thanks.  So, consensus is stay with analogue.  Assuming HM2000 controllers I need a CDU from there to the point switches, R047 etc is that right ?  Any CDU recommendations ?

My next question, and this may sound dumb but I'm trying to visualise how the layout of the controls, with 14 point switches, R047 etc in a row ( and I'm sure this is small amount compared to layouts you guys have ) how/where do you mount the point switches, labelling them so you remember what they control ?If anyone has pics they can upload of their control layouts that would help.

Thanks in advance, again.

 

 

[96RAF]

I run a single Gaugemaster CDU from the AC Aux output of an HM2000. It has enough grunt to throw pairs of solenoids at the same time. Avoid the PECO CDU which is reported as feeble.

 

Be aware the Hornby passing contact switches are not really suitable for use with a CDU, see Flashbangs website for details (Brian Lambert) and an explanation why. Scroll down this page https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical_Page_2.html

 

Most folk would make up a mimic panel - a schematic representation of their layout and mount the switches at the point position. Others would label the switches in a bank and have an led on the panel instead.

 

My method is to use a CDU with rotary switches to select the point and push button switches to activate the solenoid to straight or branch. Wiring diagram available on my linked website.

[Chrissaf]

Note that Hornby R047 switches are not used for points. Hornby use R044 switches for points. The R047 is not a momentary action switch nor a change-over one either. Hornby refer to momentary action as 'passing contact' as their termiology. R047 switches are basic 'On/Off' switches used, for example, to turn layout lighting or another accessory on and off.

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Do not use the R044 switch with a CDU......they are not 100% compatible. The R044 switch is also horrendously expensive for what it is.

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Two suggested options of many other possible options are:

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Option1)

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Use standard mini electrical switches. These need to be non locking centre off changeover switches. The big advantage of using these type of switches is firstly that they are cheap, one pound or less each. And secondly, they can be incorporated into a mimic panel that represents the points in your layout i.e a visual indicator of switch function rather than labels. Locking versions of the same switch can be used for 'lamp based signals'. Plus LEDs can be incorporated into the panel as status indicators. Push button momentary action switches could be added to the mimic panel to operate Dapol branded Semaphore signals.

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Example electrical switch

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An example of a mimic panel for points. The panels can be easily made from sheet Aluminium or sheet Perspex.

/media/tinymce_upload/ab93b4817a893192b9647dfc465a90f0.jpg

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Option 2)

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Or if you really want the 'Lever' look of a point operating switch, then use PECO PL26 type switches that are 100% compatible with a CDU.

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This previous post of mine describes the PECO switch types in more detail:

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/points-25203/?p=1

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[96RAF]

There is another soluton where you can use your digital controller to control points AND analogue trains. This gets over the problem of the poor performance seen when using the basic R8250 DC controller.

 

Split your DC layout into isolated sections such as inner and outer Trackmat loops and attach the motor output from say an 0 Gauge decoder to each track loop. These hefty decoders have enough oomph to run any current hungry 00 Gauge loco. The decoder input comes from your DCC controller. Now you can controll each section as if it were a single DCC loco.

 

To operate your points you use an accessory decoder with your DCC controller as normal.

[morairamike]

I have a DCC layout but my points and signals are controlled by a home designed and built control panel. It is much easier to keep track of what position the points are in as it has a line diagram with red/green LEDs at each point. Control is by  mom/off/mom switches and latching relays.

[MarcB]

Thanks for all the advice.

Final question on this, is there any preference on point motor; R8014, or R8243 ?  

Only real difference I see is if I can only surface mount R8014 I need the housing R8015.

 

[Chrissaf]

My personal preference is not to be able to see the operating mechanism on the surface i.e everything hidden out of view and looking as realistic as one can reasonably make it.

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Just be aware that the R8243 is prone to locking up if the mounting screws are done up too tightly. The body can flex when the screws are tight, and the flexing can jam the movement of the Solenoid slug core. The screws are best done up just tight enough to hold the R8243 in place, but loose enough to allow slight movement to be detected by the fingers.

[ColinB]

There is a firm on EBay that makes a PCB that takes 8 "centre off switches", that you can use for points. They also do a Capacitor discharge board, again very cheap You can buy it ready made. They also do switch panels containing 5 switches, for lights etc. The cost of the ready made board is a lot cheaper than buying the individual major supplier points switches. I have just bought a couple from EBay that I made up, and they are really good value for money, it even has screw terminals, which make it easier. I will add I have nothing to do with this firm, I was just looking for electronic components and found them.

[96RAF]

If you must use the smaller surface mounted motor try to fit it on the straight side of the point.

 

If you have to fit it on the curved side try to arrange for the bevelled corner of the housing to be closest to the point curve, else you can foul on certain locos, e.g.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/3874f4c304b33d3478e06a01e92c7fc9.jpg

 

[ColinB]

What I think would be the ideal solution would be a bank of analogue points switches that fed into an encoder to convert the signal into DCC or a commercial comms system like CAN. Then at the points end a simple decoder to read the signal and change the points. I think someone already makes the later, but nobody makes the former. The big advantage of this would be that you could control the points with the switches or the DCC controller. Unless, you have a computer program changing the points, with the normal system of DCC controller, it is slow. What you really need is a touch sensitive screen with a display of your layout, where you could just point to the point to change it. All very possible, but very expensive. Analogue system is much simpler and cheaper.

[MarcB]

Thanks again all.  I'll go with the R8014, and a few housings where surface mount required.

ColinB, good info about the switch banks.  Although your last suggestion is a bit to detailed for now :-)

Cheers all.

 

 

 

[96RAF]

My points system uses manual switches and a CDU allied to DCC accessory decoders, giving the best of both worlds. DCC operation from a controller or pc software package and manual switching when the pc is off or the controller is tied up running trains.

 

This is how I did it...

/media/tinymce_upload/1354bddf490dfc7ebf538452103c586c.PNG

How does it work. Manually a switch sends the CDU output to the point motor. DCC sends a pulse to a relay coil which emulates a switch push and also releases the CDU output to the point motor.

Any manual switching method can be used in lieu of my rotary and push button arrangment. My relays were 12V car relays but a modern combined relay package could be used. Convention would place protection diodes in the relay coil circuit but I didn’t and so far have not burnt anything out.

[Phil_Spiegel.]

My preference, which started back with Zero-1, and has continued in all layouts and control systems since (DCC in scales from G to H0f) has been to make the use of the versatility of using DCC/ your handheld control system to make controlling the layout as easy and flexible as possible, and to allow the best use of current display technologies to indicate the status. Today that means using a handset or tablet or phone which can control both trains and accessories , wirelessly, as I walk freely around the layout: No 'analogue' control-panel to accessory wired system can offer that versatility - or the easy updatablility if any part of the layout is redesigned!  Full dcc control makes any future planned computer driving assistance or automation much easier to implement.

The Zero-1 master, as supplied, forced accessory control to remain at the central position - although a single handheld throttle (on a multiway ribbon cable) allowed loco control to move a bit (and the slave controllers could be extended apart in the same way) ... But with its micromimic display, was taken out of service - (as it no longer matched the trackwork) to be replaced by flat panel TV/computer displays which were becoming ever larger, cheaper, lighter, and more energy efficent.   Following the path taken in the garden with LGB, we adopted wireless control as soon as appropriate handsets were available - no tripping over wires, and the ability to contol locos and points  from wherever one is.

Every change made on a 'discretely wired' analogue control layout means major changes - which DCC controlled layouts take in their stride - with a redrawn track diagram.  Modules are added as and where needed, making wiring simple and obvious.  ... so for any layout that iis planned to grow beyond a simple loop, whatever the scale/gauge I would always opt for the long term benefits of full dcc control - ALL our accessories are aloso controlled via dcc from any of the multiple handsets we have .... and that means  car / bicycle systems, operating swings, carousels and cranes, as well as signals and points ... there is no central panel to keep coming back to ...although we do have a touch screen panel ... even this can be handheld or duplicated..  (the large screen 'copy' on the portable H0 layout being for the audience)

[Kirkfish]

Hi there with regards to this topic I'm a nebie too and I'm going to run dcc for the locos but as your suggesting using dc for the points etc I was wondering what I should use to power them II'm using hornby select for the locos.any help will be much apreciated. Thanks

[96RAF]

Hi there with regards to this topic I'm a nebie too and I'm going to run dcc for the locos but as your suggesting using dc for the points etc I was wondering what I should use to power them II'm using hornby select for the locos.any help will be much apreciated. Thanks

 

You obviously didn't read the last sentence of Chris post before you hit the blue button and wasted one of your newbie posts.

 

To operate points manually on DC you need an AC output from a suitable analogue controller or power source via a CDU and a manual switching method. How to do this has previously been covered many, many times on the forum.