LMS & LSWR Brake Vans and plenty of new samples!

[JeremiahBunyan]

The September edition of The Engine Shed is out now...

 

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/lms-lswr-brake-vans-new-samples

 

Had a quick glance and there's plenty of stuff to see.

 

Enjoy!

[Rule 1 Applies]

Wow - who proofed that? 😮

 

'Tonbridge' (Should be 'Tunbridge Wells'. Tonbridge is a completely different town a few miles up the road).

'Spa Valley' (should the 'the Spa Valley Railway').

'ducketts' (should be 'duckets').

'In fact, you can see where the SR version had the lamps removed as lamp brackets have been included on either side of the model.' (if this is true, why do all brake vans have sidelight brackets? I'm sure most modellers know).

'Hornby’s regular Development blog' ('development' shouldn't be capitalised).

'Brake Vans' and 'Brake Van' (should be 'brake vans' and 'brake van').

'Please remember that as a decoration sample it is far from the finished article but it should provide you with a solid first impression of what you can expect.' ... and ...  'We do like to show you as many models as we can before they are released and one such model is the R3760 GBRf Class 59 looking particularly appealing in the bright GBRf corporate colours.' (Breathe.... BREATHE...!)

 

That's not all of the mistakes, by the way...

 

Before any Hornby fans start piling in on me, accusing me of being picky and saying 'it doesn't matter', it DOES matter. The Internet is a written medium and, if you are going to use it to professionally represent a company, get someone who can write professionally to proof-read everything.

 

Hornby wouldn't promote products using poor quality photographs. So why should the company accept poor quality writing?

Or, to put it another way for the layman, if it's OK to turn a blind eye to poor quality words, it should also be OK to turn a blind eye to poor quality numbers. Remember that the next time you are overcharged for something... 😉

[JeremiahBunyan]

In a bid to get the thread back on track....

 

I really do love the way Hornby has shown the entire development cycle of the brake vans in one go, even though it's basically a recap. I'd like to see more products covered like this in future. The brake vans look absolutely superb!

 

That Class 87 looks absolutely stunning!! Waiting to see a painted sample of the Caledonian Sleeper Class 87, if the paint job is more accurate than the Caledonian Sleeper Class 92, I'll happily re-order it!

 

The Ruston & Hornsby 48DS shunters also look great, I especially like the Longmorn Distillery one.

 

Hope the colourful GBRf Class 59 will appeal to a lot of the youngsters also. If the sales of the Class 66s are anything to go by, then the Class 59 should also fly of shelves.

 

The Belmond British Pullman pack and the additional locomotive is also superb.

[LCDR]

I am pleased that Hornby has at last added a pre-Grouping guards van to their range. and with a good selection of LSWR locomotives already in the range or having been made recently they have chosen well. 

 

I would expect that a Great Eastern van ought to be chosen next year, maybe?

[Lancing]

Yes, good to see more pre-Grouping guards vans and Southern area vans in particular. Many survived into BR days of course and, with several livery variations possible, these should prove long-lived models. Hornby's ex- LBSCR brake van is still a reasonably accurate model for its age and, with a bit of tweaking, can be improved closer to modern standards.

It may be relevant to note that guards vans didn't stray far from their 'home' territory. Inter-regional goods trains usually swapped locos, guards vans and crew at yards close to the regional boundary, so it would have been unusual to see other companies' brake vans on freight services in your local area. This wasn't always the case after nationalisation in 1948, however, especially with more modern standard designs of brake van.    

[LCDR]

Expanding on Lancing's post, during the pre -grouping period (before 1923) the only time another companies locomotive and guards van might turn up on a different railway would usually be where 'running powers' existed and for example Midland Railway goods trains would work over the Widend Lines from St Pancras, to goods yards in South London. The locomotive and guards van would deliver the wagons and then return with a load, or if one was not available, return engine and brake.

 

In fact any vehicle consigned loaded to a 'foreign' station normally had to be returned immediately to the owning company once emptied. However this was proved to be wasteful and uneconomic so many companies introduced 'pooling' agreements designating certain classes of wagon as  common user between signatory companies. This allowed the receiving company to re-load the vehicle not only back to the owning company, but to a destination in another company's territory or even within their own. 

 

After 1923 when the companies were grouped into the 'Big 4' the arrangement was continued much as before, although it became much more simple, there being only four participants and not the many dozens that existed previously.  Many classes of wagon were declared common user and would turn up in any freight train.  Special wagons however remained the exclusive property of a particular company and had to be returned as soon as they were discharged. The Midland Railway became the London Midland and Scottish Railway, but the cross London freights still came across to the Southern Railway as before.

 

Things changed considerably in 1939, when the railways came under the control of the Railway Executive for the duration of the War. Wagons were pooled and used indescriminately to fulfil the War effort. Even the 600,000 privately owned mineral wagons were requisitioned, and Petroleum Tank wagons were managed by the Petroleum Board who pooled the different fleets,'for the duration'.

 

Matters were expected to return to pre-War conditions in 1946 but Nationalisation in 1948 resulted in the entire fleet of wagons (apart from a very small number of highly specialised vehicles, and tank wagons) being taken under the control of British Railways.  This generally meant that any wagon might be used where it was needed anywhere on the national railway system. However vehicles such as brake vans tended to remain more or less within the Regions that matched the former Big 4 companies. 

 

From 1950 onwards BR introduced their own designs of brake van, and older vehicles were scrapped. The new vehicles were based on LNER and LMSR designs, and as time went on both these types became common everywhere. The Western Region perpetuated the former GWR system of allocating brake vans to certain districts and writing the requirements on the side of the vehicle, this meant that these tended to remain on the Western Region, they even applied this system to the new BR standard designs. The Southern Region retained many Southern Railway designed brake vans because the routes from Tunbridge Wells were too narrow to accept BR Standard brake vans. The Southern brake vans especially the bogie brake vans weighed 25 tons rather than 20 tons and had greater stopping power which was especially useful if the train engine was one of Bulleid's Q1 0-6-0s. This ensured the Southern did what it could to keep its own vehicles. 

 

A brake van was always the last vehicle of a goods train, and this situatuion lasted until all freight trains were fitted with continuous automatic brakes in the 1980s.  For a period in the late 20th Century brake vans were compulsory on trains carrying spent nuclear fuel and other hazardous materials, but eventually this requirement was removed.

 

 

 

[LMSnewbie]

My great-grandfather was an engine driver for LMS in the 1920s/30s. I know he hauled freight for sure. I'm not sure if he'd also have done passenger work.  I'm new to Hornby and I'd love to start with a locomotive that my great-grandfather would have driven. Can anyone advise me?

[LCDR]

In the 1920s and 1930s the LMS, especially the ex Midland lines used 0-6-0 tender locomotives extensively for goods work. They had an awful lot of them. 

 

A few figures, this was the locomotive in stock situation on former Midland lines in 1923,  -

Kirtley small 0-6-0 outside frame type built 1863 to 1874 (1F) - 449

Johnson large 0-6-0 (2F / 3F) - 935

Fowler large 0-6-0 (4F) - 192 (a further 580 locomotives were built between 1923 and 1939)

 

 

On the former L&NWR and L&YR lines they also had a lot of 0-6-0s but had started to introduce 0-8-0 locomotives extensively for goods work.

 

In 1923 -

L&Y Aspinal 0-6-0 2F - 385

L&YR Aspinal/Hughes 0-8-0 5F/7F built 1900-18 - 290

L&NWR Ramsbottom DX 0-6-0 - 88

L&NWR Webb Coal engines 0-6-0 - 227

L&NWR 0-8-0 various Webb,  Whale, Bowen-Cooke  and Beames 0-8-0 classes - 568

 

Unfortunately few of these are made as ready to run OO scale locomotives. Hornby did make the Midland 4F 0-6-0 based on a former Airfix model, although this is now discontinued, Bachmann do make the same model, and also the Johnson 0-6-0 too , and they make a L&NWR 0-8-0 as well.

 

After 1923 and throughout the 1930s  the newly created LMSR progressively withdrew the older types and replaced them with larger more powerful locomotives. They built more Midland 4F 0-6-0s (see above) but then developed new designs. In 1929 they introduced 175 of a 7F 0-8-0 an updated LNWR / LYR type. Then in 1935 Stanier introduced a modern 8F 2-8-0 goods locomotive which eventually became a class of nearly 800, although quite a few were sent overseas in World War 2 and did not return. 

Hornby do make the Stanier 2-8-0 which is an excellent model.

 

Mixed traffic locomotives were also used on goods services, and the Hughes Fowler 5 2-6-0 and Stanier class 5  4-6-0 types introduced in 1926 and 1934 respectively. Hornby make the 5MT 4-6-0, and Bachmann make the 2-6-0 (both Hughes Fowler and Stanier versions). 

 

For shunting and local goods there were numerous 0-4-0, 0-6-0, and 0-6-2 tank classes.  Some of these are made in 4mm scale and especially the Fowler 3F 0-6-0T which is a popular Hornby model.

 

 

[LMSnewbie]

thank you so much for your help, you clearly have an excellent knowledge of this. I know for a fact he drove on the Whitehaven-Barrow line in the mid to late 1930s as a goods driver. Does this help narrow down the list of locomotives a little?

thanks again.

A few figures, this was the locomotive in stock situation on former Midland lines in 1923,  -

Kirtley small 0-6-0 outside frame type built 1863 to 1874 (1F) - 449

Johnson large 0-6-0 (2F / 3F) - 935

Fowler large 0-6-0 (4F) - 192 (a further 580 locomotives were built between 1923 and 1939)

On the former L&NWR and L&YR lines they also had a lot of 0-6-0s but had started to introduce 0-8-0 locomotives extensively for goods work.

In 1923 -

L&Y Aspinal 0-6-0 2F - 385

L&YR Aspinal/Hughes 0-8-0 5F/7F built 1900-18 - 290

L&NWR Ramsbottom DX 0-6-0 - 88

L&NWR Webb Coal engines 0-6-0 - 227

L&NWR 0-8-0 various Webb,  Whale, Bowen-Cooke  and Beames 0-8-0 classes - 568

Unfortunately few of these are made as ready to run OO scale locomotives. Hornby did make the Midland 4F 0-6-0 based on a former Airfix model, although this is now discontinued, Bachmann do make the same model, and also the Johnson 0-6-0 too , and they make a L&NWR 0-8-0 as well.

After 1923 and throughout the 1930s  the newly created LMSR progressively withdrew the older types and replaced them with larger more powerful locomotives. They built more Midland 4F 0-6-0s (see above) but then developed new designs. In 1929 they introduced 175 of a 7F 0-8-0 an updated LNWR / LYR type. Then in 1935 Stanier introduced a modern 8F 2-8-0 goods locomotive which eventually became a class of nearly 800, although quite a few were sent overseas in World War 2 and did not return. 

Hornby do make the Stanier 2-8-0 which is an excellent model.

Mixed traffic locomotives were also used on goods services, and the Hughes Fowler 5 2-6-0 and Stanier class 5  4-6-0 types introduced in 1926 and 1934 respectively. Hornby make the 5MT 4-6-0, and Bachmann make the 2-6-0 (both Hughes Fowler and Stanier versions). 

For shunting and local goods there were numerous 0-4-0, 0-6-0, and 0-6-2 tank classes.  Some of these are made in 4mm scale and especially the Fowler 3F 0-6-0T which is a popular Hornby model.

 

[LCDR]

Ah, ... the Whitehaven to Barrow line was formerly Furness Railway territory although closely associated with the London and North Western Railway, so a few surviving Furness Railway designs might have been used. Unfortunately this will not help because no-one makes models of Furness Railway types, this being a fairly small company. However being non-standard these were withdrawn quite early and will have been replaced by newer locomotives. (only six ex Furness 0-6-0s lasted until 1948 but had all gone by 1957).

 

The nearest you will get I guess will be the Midland / LMS 4F 0-6-0 which eventually became ubiquitous. There were certainly many of these on the Furness lines in 1948. There were also Stanier 5MT 4-6-0 and Fowler 3F 0-6-0T allocated to local sheds.

 

[LMSnewbie]

Thanks again, you've been very helpful. He died in 1937, so I think the 0-6-0 might well be my best bet (as a starting point anyway) for accuracy.

I see some of the LMS 0-6-0s are black, whilst others are maroon. Could you explain to me why that is? Were the colours used during different periods, or for particular work or routes? I'll need to do some research on the type of freight that would have been hauled on the Whitehaven to Barrow line - but I'm not sure this is the right forum for that. 

[LCDR]

Generally speaking after 1923 passenger locomotives were painted red (on the LMS) and every thing else was black. The Stanier 5MT (Mixed Traffic)( 4-6-0s were called "Black Fives" because they were black, whereas the almost similar looking Jubilee class which were 5XP (Express Passenger) 4-6-0s  were red. 

 

All the other railways adopted a similar policy, except for red read green. 

[LMSnewbie]

Thanks again. I've ordered a Hornby LMS 0-6-0 3F, weathered, to get me started. Would this unit have ordinarily run without a tender? It doesn't come with one.

From the images I can see online it would seem so?

[LCDR]

It really depends upon which model you have ordered. Hornby have not produced a 3F as described since this one in 2008.

 

If it is this one (or something that looks like this) then No it did not have a tender.

[LMSnewbie]

Yes, that's the one. Thank you!

[walkingthedog]

Just for info, the loco you have bought us a tank loco. They carried their water in tanks either side of the boiler and coal behind the  cab. There are various types of tank loco with the tanks in slightly different positions. 

[LCDR]

The 3F 0-6-0T is a good choice for your chosen use and period.   They were good to use for shunting and for short trips with goods wagons, and occasionally for local passenger work as well. Being tank engines their range was limited by the smaller amount of coal they could carry.

 

I do not have details for pre-War allocations, but by 1950 the following locomotives were allocated to Workington shed

7290 (numbered 7130 until 1934), 7292 (7132 until 1934), 7593 (16676 until 1934), 

and the following allocated to Barrow shed,

7287 (7127 until 1934) , 7322 (16405 until 1934), 7323 (16406 until 1934), 

16624 became 7541 in 1934 and in 1950 was allocated to Polmadie near Glasgow.

 

They will have moved about quite a lot, when they needed overhaul they would be sent to works and another loco might have been sent to replace it.

[LMSnewbie]

Thanks gents, much obliged. Without your help I'd have been clueless as to where to start. 

I now just need to establish the wagons it would have been hauling on Barrow-Furness/ by this type of loco during that period - and consequently which ones to look out for.

I'm sure I read that there was a lot of ore, and I'm presuming coal?

Any further tips would be appreciated. 

[LCDR]

The railway between Workington and Barrow was heavily influenced by the Iron and Steel industry, with major furnaces at both places and extensive iron ore mines on branch lines all over West Cumberland and Furness.  There were coal mines towards the North as well all along the coast, so your trains would be carrying plenty of coal and iron ore.

 

In addition there would be finished and semi-finished steel products leaving the steel works on bolster wagons (especially single and twin bolster wagons in pre-War days) and wagons of pig iron to foundries in open wagons. At the same time general goods would also be an important traffic in vans and open wagons. 

 

Before 1939 most coal and iron ore was carried in wagons owned by the the private companies which were decorated in colourful liveries of their owners. 

 

Here are a few names to look out for.

 

Collieries

 Arkleby, Broughton Moor, Birkby Colliery Dearham Bridge, Brayton Domain No 5 Aspatria, Bullgill, Allerdale Coal Co. William Pit Camerton, Risehow Colliery and Coking Co. Flimby,, Priestman' s Whitehaven Collieries Ltd.  Haig Pit, Ladysmith Colliery,  Wellington Pit, William Pit, Walkmill, St Helens Workington. Earl of Lonsdale Whitehaven

Iron Ore

Beckermet Mining Co. Ullcoats Iron Mines, Millom and Askam Haematite Iron Co., Hodbarrow Mining Co. , Newton Mines Ltd., 

Iron and Steel works

United Steel Co., including Workington Iron & Steel Co., Moss Bay Ironworks,  Barrow Haematite Steel Co. Distington Iron, 

Coke and Chemicals

United Coke and Chemicals Ltd. Harrington,  Thomas Ness Ltd. Whitehaven , Burt Bolton & Heywood, (Barrow), Priestman' s Whitehaven Collieries Ltd. Whitehaven, 

Ship Builders

Vickers Armstrongs Ltd. (Barrow)

 

This is NOT a comprehensive list, and it is worth investigating wagons that are available to find appropriate ones.

 

[LMSnewbie]

Right, I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum for this. I apologise if this should be on another thread.

The 3F 0-6-0 LMS locomotive has arrived. it was described as an "excellent runner", but I've put it on my new analogue track and nothing happens at all (another train runs on it just fine). 

I contacted the seller who said he tested it before posting and it was running great. He seems genuine. I'm guessing it's maybe taken a knock in the post but there's nothing obvious.

I'd like to get it working again as I like the model, can anyone suggest what I should do or direct me to any books/guides on the subject? I have no experience at all repairing these but believe there's only one way to learn. 

[LCDR]

Although it is unlikely, it may be possible that rough handling has dislodged something in transit. However I would expect the seller to put it right if it has got damaged, after all he will have selected the courier/postal service and you ought to be entitled to a refund or arrange repair. And you only have his word that it was working before he sent it.

 

If you do decide to have a go yourself (not recommended) you will need to remove the body and inspect the interior merchanism. A service sheet is available (Hornby Service Sheest 201) to be found on this forum under Help and Advice  / Downloads / Service Sheets / Hornby Service Sheets 200 - 250 / HSS201F, this shows the component parts. Dismantling is fraught with pit-falls as there are small pieces such as springs which are easily lost. 

 

Possible faults will include dirt or obstruction between the phosphor bronze pick-ups which are integral with the motor and the back of the wheels, this can be removed with care. To test the motor before dismantling turn the whole locomotive upside down and with the power turned on touch each side pick-up with the leads from the controller (one on one side and the other on the opposite side at once) .

 

The motor is sold as a unit, and is difficult / impossible to service at home. You may be able to obtain a replacement one from a dealer such as Peter's Spares.

 

[LMSnewbie]

Thanks for your advice. I've got it working now and it's running very well. 

[LCDR]

Good to hear that, enjoy your trtains.