This Loco is Special to me...

[JJ73]

Hiya  😀

 

I have just bough off Ebay the 'BR, Fowler 4P Class, 2-6-4T, 42334 - Era 5'

 

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& the reason why this Loco is Special to me is b/c :-

1.  This Loco came in to Service way back in 12th March 1929 - the same day as my B-day but I obviously I wasn't born in 1929 but much MUCH later!!!  😉 😆 😀
2.  If you read the discription from the page (https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/br-2-6-4t-fowler-4p.html) it talks about a certain route the this Loco went on...
   

"operating suburban services from St.Pancras, Euston, Clydeside and the Midland conurbations, as well as the difficult central Wales line from Swansea and Shrewsbury. This arduous route working was matched by the Manchester–Buxton line working via Stockport"

I Live nr Buxton (Only an 1 hrs bike ride away along the MT) & it is a very Lovely Town aswell!!!

 I really like this Loco for the red strips it has oin it!!!

 

A few questions though...

1. It a 'Class 4P' what does the 'P' stand for please???
2. Its a '2-6-4T' - What does the 'T stand for???
3. it also a '4MT' - what does the MT stand for - is it some thing to do with the size - cos I also have a Static Model of a BR '2MT' 2-6-2T which only has 2 bogie wheels @ the back & a smaller Coal Bunker!!! - see photo...

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Thank you in advanve!!!  😀

[jane1707819582]

P for passenger

T for tank engine 

F for freight

MT for mixed traffic

Class (x) the power of the loco 

[JJ73]

Cor that was quick & 'SIMPLES' as they say on that Insurance advert!!!

Thank you Jane2  😀

[jane1707819582]

Some loco's have mixed numbers say 6P5F.

Jubilee were 5XP express passenger Lms becoming 6P BR 

[NWR-Gordon-4]

A very good acquisition of R3404, Jimyjames. Well done.Thank you for sharing with us, as to why it is special to yourself. Enjoy the locomotive.  😉  😀

 

GNR-Gorodn-4 (HF)

[JJ73]

So did that mean if it said 6P5F That loco had 6 Carriages (for paaengers) & 5 wagons (for Fraight) all on the same train b/c it was mixed???

[JJ73]

Thank you Jacob - oh I forgot to say -  get this : Hornby Price :- £140.99

                                                                              Ebay Price  :- £89.99

WOW what as saving of £51!!!

[Puffed Out]

Now I'm jealous....like that alot.  😆

I'd like one sat beside my R2213B Class 61XX.....I guess Id better check the status of my bank balance.

[NWR-Gordon-4]

Hornby price is the RRP. Most model shops and retailers are able to sell the models below the RRP. I find that the RRP are always overpriced, as you can always get the models cheaper, providing of course you buy the model before the stock clears and the model is discontinued.

 

Hatton's Model Railways have more than 10 in stock, for £89.00 each, plus postage.

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

[jane1707819582]

So did that mean if it said 6P5F That loco had 6 Carriages (for paaengers) & 5 wagons (for Fraight) all on the same train b/c it was mixed???

No Jimmy it means a class 6 for passengers and a class 5 for freight .6P5F.

[JJ73]

@ Jacob :- well I got mine post free from a Model shop in Kent so there  😛 😆 😉 😀

 

@ Jane2 - It is 2 different trains then yes???

[81F]

 I undcerstand that the number was a relative indication of power which would probably help a shed forman select the most suitable loco for the job.

 

However, I do not know how they worked it out. For example the GWR used A, B, C, D & E and I believed that this corresponded to the Locos Tractive effort. However this is not necessariiy the case with the LMS/BR classification. For example the the S&DJR 7F actually has a higher tractive effort than a Stannier 8F. So there must be other factors being taken into account regarding the locos suitability for the task. This might also explain why some mixed traffic locos have different number asso9ciated with either the P or F.

 

Does anyone know the answer?

[LCDR]

Locomotives had to categorised into power classes to determine which would be suitable to haul a particular train. 

 

The haulage power determined by the calculated tractive effort was very important, this was calculated for a steam locomotive using boiler pressure, cylinder size, and driving wheel diameter, adjusted by differences such as superheating, compounding and number of cylinders. The formular is quite complex and I will not describe it detail.

 

The speed of the train was another factor. A freight train could be allowed travel fairly slowly, but needed to get a very heavy train on the move, so adhesion was more important than speed. Smaller wheels and more of them being the order of the day.

 

Express Passenger trains tended to be much lighter, but needed to go quickly and cover long distances, so the larger the wheel the better. Suburban passenger trains with many stops needed to accelerate and brake frequently so small driving wheels helped to get moving quickly. Branch lines needed economy so smaller locomotives which were versatlie and could handle both passenger and light freight were required.

 

Different routes were capable of supporting the weight of locomotives and rolling stock only up to a certain maximum, so a method of axle weight classification was required.Usually this was published in documents issued to staff, although the GWR also painted a colour coded dot on the locomotive and the LNER painted an RA number on the side. Booklets were also issued to staff setting out the maximum train weight and length permitted on any particular route. 

 

The overall profile of locomotives and rolling stock was also a limiting factor. Some locomotives and carriages were too high or too wide to pass through bridges or station platforms on another railway, the Great Western was particularly difficult in this respect, and GW locomotives were prohibitted on many parts of the Southern Railway and LNER . Here too the information was published in documents given to staff. This problem persisted well into BR days and even the Mark 1 coaching stock designed to be used throughout BR was restricted over lines such as the Newcastle and Carlisle route for many years.

[LCDR]

SOME EXAMPLES

 

GWR

Power classes, by tractive effort (pounds)

E              31000 to 35380

D             23500 to 30999

C             20500 to 23499

B             18950 to 20499

A             14000 to 18949

 

Route restrictions

Double Red        very heavy (King Class only)

Red                        heavy

Blue                       medium

Yellow                   light

Uncoloured        unrestricted

 

Southern

Power class

A             G16, H15, H16, LN, N15,Q1, S15, V

B             Q, T14  

C             700

D             D15, L12

E              S11

F              K10, L11

G             0395

H             T9

I               T3, X6

J              A12

K             All tank locos except G16 and H16

 

LMSR

 

P             Passenger (7P to 0P)

X is added for Patriots,  Jubilees, and Claughtons distinguishing certain  express classes i.e. 5XP

F              Freight (8F to 0F)

 

LNER

 

RA          1 to 10 (lightest to heaviest)

[jane1707819582]

@ Jacob :- well I got mine post free from a Model shop in Kent so there  😛 😆 😉 😀

 

@ Jane2 - It is 2 different trains then yes???

Same loco different rolling stock .remember a train is a loco and stock.

[Jimbo1707820979]

@LC&DR

Very nicely and clearly explained. Many thanks. I will print this out

[atom3624]

Being pedantic, I wouldn't say the express passenger locos were lighter - try telling that to the Duchess of Sutherland or Tornado owners ...

 

That apart, the explanation was typically excellent fare from LC&DR.

Part can be adhesive weight, with express locomotives including more carrying & guide wheels than the (normally) slower freight locomotives.

 

Was it true that Evening Star did touch 90mph on occasion as was rumoured when I was 'learning basic railway stats' (getting into the hobby) when at school?

 

Al.

[JJ73]

Thank you Jane2  😀

 

@ L. C. :-

 

The overall profile of locomotives and rolling stock was also a limiting factor. Some locomotives and carriages were too high or too wide to pass through bridges or station platforms on another railway, the Great Western was particularly difficult in this respect, and GW locomotives were prohibitted on many parts of the Southern Railway and LNER .

I did not know that - I just alway thought that all rolling stock were a Stardard size!!! - Every day is a school day with you L. C.!!!  😀

[LCDR]

Even within one railway company there had to be restrictions on where locomotives and carriages could go. Take for example the Southern Railway. The sections of the Southern Railway which used to be The London and South Western, London, Brighton and South Coast and South Eastern and Chatham Railways all built their lines to different cross sections, which caused problems. To cater for this the Southern categorised its rolling stock into seven different 'gauges'. This is a copy of an instruction in the Southern Railway Appendix. 

RESTRICTED WORKING OF ROLLING STOCK 1934

 

Southern Railway steam train coaching stock which must not work over certain portions of the Southern Railway, is indicated by a route restriction plate fixed on the ends of each vehicle.

 

RESTRICTION 1

Vehicles so marked may pass over all portions of the line except between –

(a) Grove Junction (Tunbridge Wells) and Battle.

(b) Hastings and Winchelsea

 

RESTRICTION 2

Vehicles so marked may pass over all portions of the line except between –

 (a) Grove Junction (Tunbridge Wells) and Battle.

(b) Hastings and Winchelsea

© Tonbridge and Grove Junction (Tunbridge Wells)

(d) Gypsy Hill and Crystal Palace Low Level

 

RESTRICTION 3

Vehicles so marked may pass over all portions of the line except between –

 (a) Grove Junction (Tunbridge Wells) and Battle.

(b) Hastings and Winchelsea.

© Tonbridge and Grove Junction (Tunbridge Wells).

(d) Gypsy Hill and Crystal Palace Low Level.

(e)  Cooksbridge and Lewes.

 

RESTRICTION 4

Vehicles so marked may pass over all portions of the line except between –

 (a) Grove Junction (Tunbridge Wells) and Battle.

(b) Hastings and Winchelsea.

© Tonbridge and Grove Junction (Tunbridge Wells).

(d) Gypsy Hill and Crystal Palace Low Level.

(e)  Cooksbridge and Lewes.†

(f) Charlton and Plumstead.

(g) Dartford and Strood

(h) Hawkesbury  Street Junction and Archcliffe Junction (Dover)‡

† May work between Cooksbridge and Lewes provided no other train is allowed on the adjacent line in Lewes tunnel at the same time.

‡ May work between Hawkesbury  Street Junction and Archcliffe Junction provided no other train is allowed on the adjacent line between these points at the same time.

 

RESTRICTION 5

Vehicles so marked must be confined to the section of the line which originally constituted the London Brighton and South Coast Railway. They may not work between Gypsy Hill and Crystal Palace Low Level. They must not work on the Western or Eastern Sections of the Line.

Coaches Nos. 6926, 7638, 7639, 7640, 7642, 7643, and 7775   may not work between Gypsy Hill and Crystal Palace Low Level nor between Cooksbridge and Lewes.

 

RESTRICTION 6

Vehicles so marked must be confined to the sections of the line which originally constituted the London Brighton and South Coast Railway. They may not work between Gypsy Hill and Crystal Palace Low Level.

 

Note – no coaching stock , except open carriage trucks may be allowed over the Canterbury West to Whitstable Harbour Goods Line.

 

By exception all other stock was referred to as RESTRICTION 0 (zero) . 

 

When Maunsell introduced new carriages these were built to RESTRICTION 0 for the Charing Cross to Hastings services (the Schools class were also built to fit this gauge) , and to RESTRICTION 1 intended for services to Thanet, and RESTRICTION 4, for general main line use. Hornby Maunsell corridor coaches are all Restriction 4.

 

A similar system applied to locomotives although this was not applied by cast plates. The King Arthur class N15 came in two different sizes. (30)448 to 453, (30)736 to 755 had large cabs which prohibited them from working away from the London and South Western section. The information was displayed on a printed matrix published in a route restriction document.

[JJ73]

WOW a lot of restrictions to remember if you were a Train Driver!!!

[LCDR]

Remember that real trains only ran to a timetable (well nearly all) and these timetables were worked out and  published by an army of clerks (I was one for a while) months and months in advance. I was, for a short time, in charge of a small office in Newcastle where we prepared the timetable and working programmes for all the DMU services in Northumberland, Durham,  parts of North Yorkshire and the Cumbrian coast. There were four of us, and we started preparing the permanent timetable more than 18 months before it was to be implemented, and in addition prepared daily alterations to cater for disruptions caused by engineering operations and other contingencies. The timetable had to dovetail with the East Coast Main Line and West Coast main Line especially at Newcastle, Darlington and Carlisle so the team had to go to meetings with the planners who prepared these timetables to iron out conflicts where two trains needed to use the same platform at once, for example.

 

Previously I worked at Beckenham in Kent in a train planning office which dealt only with alterations to the time table for services in South East London and Kent. My role was to adjust the locomotive working arrangements and the crew working programmes so that extra trains had all the necessary resources, and if trains could not run in their booked path the resources were re-allocated to avoid delay and cancellation. All this had to be published in documents so station managers, signalmen and the crew themselves knew in advance what they were supposed to do. 

 

We had to apply the restrictions in our work, so that drivers and guards did not have to remember everything, or at least were not faced with duties that were wrong, but of course many of them made it their business to have extensive knowledge, and were indeed tested every few years on the more important bits.

Day to day emergencies had to be dealt with by an office known as Control (CON-TROL) who did the alterations in real time phoning out or sending the changes by teleprinter. 

[ColinB]

Was it Tunbridge Wells to Hastings where they messed up the tunnel design, so that the locos and carriages had to be narrower?

[LCDR]

Yes CB it was. It was OK when coaches were 8 foot wide, but 8 foot 6 inches and later 9 foot wide became the standard.  The problem with the tunnels between Tumbridge Wells and Battle was that when it was being built the contractor thought he could get away with putting insufficient bricks into the lining, and very quickly it was found to be collapsing. To stop the collapse more bricks were needed and these were put inside the existing, making it a smaller hole.

 

Maunsell designed special carriages which were only 8 feet wide and they had straight vertical sides, although in layout they were otherwise very similar to the new 9 foot wide carriages which are those Hornby make models of.  The Schools class were built to fit this line too and Charing Cross to Hastings was the most important route for this class.  What is not widely known is that early Bullied light Pacifics were also designed to fit, but because the driver's view was severlely limited they were rebuilt with 8 foot 6 inch wide cabs with wedge shape which then prohibited their use.