Cobalt omega and DCC acc decoder

[Railway man 123]

does Hornbys acc decoder work with slow action point motors? like the cobalt omega by dcc concepts. If you can how would you wire it and how would you program the acc decoder. Any help would be great.

[Railway man 123]

And would you need to change eg The cv.

[Howbi]

Have you downloaded the Cobalt manual.......... https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/owners-manual-cobalt-classic-omega-point-motors/ ..........essential for correct installation......HB

[Flashbang]

Hi

No, not directly as there is no means of reversing the polarity from the accessory decoder. However, there is a simple work around .... You can operate a DPDT relay and via its contacts feed the Cobalt from a regulated DC supply (Not DCC)  the relay energises for one position of the motor and then when de energised the motor moves the other way.  You need to wire the relay so as its contacts form a reversal of polarity.  

[Chrissaf]

DCC Concepts actually sell an adaptor to convert the three wire output of a Solenoid Accessory Decoder to a two wire reversing polarity output to operate their Omega 'slow action' point motors. This adaptor is all electronic (two transistors) and has no moving parts (like a relay for example). I have 'back engineered' one of these adaptors and it is a very simple elegant circuit that does the conversion function efficiently without fuss.

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I can't post the circuit diagram and parts list for this adaptor here as I would be in breach of DCC Concepts copyright and intellectual property rights.

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This will work with a Hornby R8247 Accessory Decoder, but will not work with the earlier obsolete R8216 Accessory Decoder. The reason being is that the R8216 does not support an 'always on' configuration. Neither is the R8216 pulse length configurable.

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As well as using the DCC Concepts adaptor, you will also need to configure the R8247 port for 'always on' operation. This can easily be done if you have RailMaster with either an Elite or eLink or an Elite on its own. But to do this with a Select you need firmware version 1.6 or 2.0 [at the time of writing this reply].

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If you cannot configure the R8247 for 'always on' operation, then you would need to use 'Flashbangs' relay solution, but the relay would need to be a three wire latching variety such as Gaugemaster's GM500D.

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DCC Concepts 3 to 2 wire adaptor [3 pack]. 6 pack and 12 pack also available.

Gaugemaster GM500D

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EDIT: Having just looked at your previous posting history, I see that you have an Elite ... thus you will be able to configure the R8247 ports for 'always on'.

[Rog RJ]

@Chrissaf

 

Is this the circuit http://pgahtow.de/wiki/index.php?title=Datei:Motorweichenadapter.png

[Chrissaf]

It is very close indeed. Your Internet public domain published circuit uses two NPN transistors. The DCC Concepts design uses two PNP transistors. So there are some distinct differences because of the change of transistor polarity, but the principle used in the methodolgy of converting 3 to 2 wires is very similar in both circuit schematics.

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If anyone is interested, this is how the circuit on Rog's link works:

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Top Circuit Schematic.

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JP6 switched negative, puts a negative on the base of Q2 holding it off.

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JP6 switched negative provides a current path through the point motor and D3 for the positive on JP7. This current path allows a current to flow into the base of Q1 switching it on. The current through the motor flows in the direction of the white arrow. JP8 is floating (has no polarity).

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Bottom Circuit Schematic.

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JP8 switched negative, puts a negative on the base of Q1 holding it off.

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JP8 switched negative provides a current path through the point motor and D4 for the positive on JP7. This current path allows a current to flow into the base of Q2 switching it on. The current through the motor flows in the direction of the white arrow. This time in reverse to the top circuit schematic. JP6 is floating (has no polarity).

 

[Railway man 123]

@ Chrissaf what is the adaptor called? and is that all I need to make it work?

[Chrissaf]

...what is the adaptor called?

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RM123,

Follow the link in my previous post further above timestamped at 18:34.

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In case you do not realise it. The text with underlined red text is a clickable link to another Internet web page. In this case, the link titled "DCC Concepts 3 to 2 wire adaptor (3 pack)". This link takes you directly to the product page for the adaptor in the DCC Concepts online catalogue. The product is called "DCC Decoder Convertor 3 wire to 2 wire". The DCC Concepts part number is DCD-SDCx [where x = 3 for 3 pack or 6 for 6 pack or 12 for 12 pack].

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The Convertor just requires a 'Solenoid Type' accessory decoder that can be configured for 'always on' operation or can have the 'pulse length' configured for 4 seconds ('always on' is the preferred methodology).

[Railway man 123]

Which decoder from dcc concepts would work with it and will it work with the elite. And where do the two wires from the 2 to 3 connector get wired to on the motor. Any help would be great.

[Railway man 123]

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[Railway man 123]

If I use a gm 500d with the slow moving point motor. I want it to change my signals while the point changes.

[Chrissaf]

RM123

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Please read my previous replies carefully as I seem to be continuously repeating myself.

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GM500D Latching Relays are NOT compatible with the operation of a Slow Action point motor. They both work on different electrical characteristics.

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To meet your requirement in DCC control you would need to use the DCC Concepts iP Digital point motor which has the decoder built in INCLUDING change-over contacts to operate your signal at the same time. Read the iP Digital instruction manual as I advised in my last reply.

[Chrissaf]

Which decoder from DCC concepts would work with it and will it work with the elite. And where do the two wires from the 2 to 3 connector get wired to on the motor. Any help would be great.

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You keep on throwing all these random questions at me that flit about from one product to another, across two different but inter-related threads. My head is going around in a spin.

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Most 'slow action' point motors are what they call a 'stall action' motor. The point motor consists of a small electric motor inside the case that is linked via a low gearing gearbox to a rod that operates the point tie bar. A Tortoise motor is a good example of this type of 'slow action' motor. As is the DCC Concepts 'Omega' you mentioned in another post.

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Tortoise                                             Omega

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The electric motor spins clockwise to operate the point in one direction and then spins anti-clockwise to operate the point in the other direction. As is normal for most electric motors, the motor only has two wire connections.

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Since the electric motor in the 'Stall Action' point motor has to go either clockwise or anti-clockwise to change the point, then the two wires (ONLY TWO) that connect to it need to have a DC polarity provided on them that reverses. This is where the 3 wire to 2 wire convertor comes into it. The convertor takes a standard 3 wire Accessory Decoder configured for 'always on' operation and converts it to 2 wires that reverse polarity to suit the 'slow action stall' motors.

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Stall means that the motor drives the full length of its travel and then the motor is physically stalled (it cannot turn any more). The motor continues to draw electrical current, but the motor is designed to make sure this 'stall current' is very low.

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Now I have used the 'Tortoise' motor just as an example. I am not recommending it. For one thing it is extremely large and quite expensive. Then to operate it using DCC Digital you need an Accessory Decoder that is configurable for 'always on' plus the 3 wire to 2 wire convertors. The cost and complexity of purchasing all these disparate products and hooking them up together is not cost effective.

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The DCC Concepts iP Digital point motors discussed in your OTHER THREAD consolidate all of these functions into one single product. The iP Digital is a 'slow action' point motor that has an integrated decoder built into it, thus the cost of an external accessory decoder and 3 wire to 2 wire convertors are eliminated. The iP Digital also has change-over contacts built into it to operate dual aspect signals, thus eliminating the need for GM500D latching relays that you keep on bringing into the discussion on your OTHER THREAD.

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iP Digital (see how similar it is to the DC Analogue Omega above, except this iP version is fully DCC Digital with an integrated DCC Decoder).

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Just to reiterate. You cannot use the GM500D with either of these two options. The three wire section on the left between the Accessory Decoder and the 3 to 2 wire convertor is configured for 'always on' whereas the GM500D needs a 'pulse'.

 

 

[Flashbang]

Using a GM500D with the Hornby Accessory decoder still set to is original Pulse output is quite feasible, but does involve a separate power supply (9 or 12 volts DC regulated) to feed both the signal and the Cobalt Omega, plus of course some additional wiring.    Reverse wires on Cobalt 4 & 5 if aspects are wrong to point position.

Note the two link wires fitted on the GM500D pads 2 to 6 and pads 3 to 5.

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[Flashbang]

Oops!!!   Sorry there is an error in the above GM500D wiring!  A corrected drawing is below.

 

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[Chrissaf]

The issue with that schematic RM123, is that the GM500D works best with a 'pulse' output from the Accessory Decoder, whilst the '3 to 2 Convertor' works best with an 'Always On' output from the Accessory Decoder [or a pulse time of three to four seconds according to DCC Concepts documentation]. The output of the 'Accessory Decoder' has to be one or the other, it can't be both 'pulse' and 'always on'.

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In the post directly above yours. Flashbang has already given you the wiring solution for incorporating a GM500D with a DCC Concepts Omega motor with the ability to interlock a dual aspect signal. If limited to those specific hardware components i.e GM500D & Omega motor, then Flashbang's wiring suggestion can not be improved upon.