Select just died

[geejbee]

Good evening, I'm geejbee a newbie to DCC.

I'm in the throws of creating a small layout. It started with the Somerset Belle set which was new and unused but paperwork inside suggested it was several years old.

All has been going well and Its coming along nicely. However an issue arose this evening which has me stumped. The little jinty was rolling along nicely when it just died. All connections are good but I only had a reading of 0.17 volts across the track. I reset the select to analogue and found that the jinty and my new Tornado both went well (individually). Tornado at the moment is DCC ready. Decoder is on order.In this set up I was getting a positive voltage reading of up to say 9volts when the controller was operated.

I tried resetting the select, but on the default 03, the jinty still wouldn't move. The only other clue I have is that when powering up the select, it cycles through 12, 30 and then 03. I seem to remember it used to be 11, 30, 03.    Any help would be appreciated but don't assume I am a wizard with electronics. Haha.

[96RAF]

From what you say your Select is not dead, just not powering a decoder equipped loco. You say it runs in analogue mode and the screen shows the startup sequence so it is not dead.

 

Your Select will not have self updated itself from v1.1 to v1.2, that needs Hornby to do it. As yours is several versions behind you may wish to contact HCC to see about getting it updated it costs £18 inc VAT and you pay postage to them. It will then become a decent and much more capable basic controller.

 

It is definitely not recommended to even place a DC loco on a DCC track as you are in danger of burning the motor out, regardless of the fact the manual says you can.

 

When measuring voltage on a DCC track you need to use the AC scale to give an approximate voltage of about 15vAC. Using the DC scale will not give you much of a clue.

 

Try giving the Jinty a new address and see if it works then. Normally we recommend resetting the decoder but your Select can’t do that until it is updated to v1.6 - startup sequence 16-30-03.

 

[geejbee]

Sorry, correction to the above, the Tornado runs on the select set to analogue but not the jinty. That will run on the old dc controller after a fashion which suggests to me that the fault is with the select, although as I inferred above, electronics are not my strong point.

[96RAF]

Will the Jinty run in both directions  if you apply the terminals of a 9v block battery to the wheels.

[Chrissaf]

...as I inferred above, electronics are not my strong point.

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In which case I won't try and baffle you with science. Thus my reply below makes technical statements which you will just need to accept as gospel, that I won't on this occasion try to offer detailed 'bits and bytes' explanations.

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But when you put the Select in DC Analogue support mode (which as others have already stated, you should not run a DC loco this way even if it is supported as a feature of the controller**) you are not applying a DC voltage to the track. As Rob says above, you need to measure the track voltage output of the Select with a meter on the AC voltage range, expect to see an AC voltage reading between 13.5 and 15 volts. This is the same, whether the Select is in DCC or DC operation mode. Your 0.17 volts track reading is a value one would expect to see if the meter is set to measure DC voltage and not AC.

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A DCC fitted loco (for example the Jinty, if no faults) will as you say run with a DC Analogue controller, but it would be quite normal for it not to run like a DC loco when the Select is in DC Analogue mode. As I have just said, the Select does not apply proper DC voltage to the track when in DC Analogue operation mode. The Tornado which is genuinely a proper DC loco, runs as expected in that Select mode, but the Jinty decoder still sees a DCC voltage waveform and is trying its best to make sense of it and failing to do so.

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If you are getting about 14 volts 'give or take' with a meter set to measure AC, then the more likely failure is with the Jinty decoder. Decoder configuration can be corrupted if a 'short circuit' occurs on the track. The decoder corruption can prevent the Jinty from responding under DCC control, but could still allow the decoder to switch to DC operation when a proper pure DC voltage is offered to it (but not the pseudo DC provided by the Select).

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Sometimes, the corruption needs the decoder to be reset*** in order to recover the situation. But version 1.0 to 1.5 of the Select firmware can not perform a decoder reset. You can however reset the decoder and do far more than that if you have the highly recommended firmware 1.6 upgrade performed. Select firmware upgrades are as Rob has already stated, a return to Hornby upgrade service. You need to obtain a 'returns number' from Hornby Customer Services.

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Note**: There are pages and pages of posts on this forum detailing the technical reasons why you should not use DC Analogue controller support on a DCC layout. The Select manual even has some Hornby 'small print' saying this feature is supported but not recommended as motor damage may result. You really are risking permanent damage of your Tornado DCC Ready loco motor.

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Note***: A Hornby decoder is factory reset by writing a value of 8 to CV8.

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IMPORTANT

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Just as an aside, does your power track from the 'Somerset Set' have brown/buff press buttons on it as shown in this Internet image of the set contents:

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/media/tinymce_upload/65aa7d9df92ca4a6dcefad1bd4915b97.jpg

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If it does, then your set may have been one of the sets that left the Chinese factory with a DC Analogue power track included in the set in error, instead of a DCC one.

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The capacitor inside the DC Analogue power track distorts the DCC signal and can prevent correct DCC decoder function.

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Even if your power track does not have brown/buff press buttons, it is still worth just for peace of mind, opening up the power track and checking for a capacitor and removing any capacitor found ... see image below for how.

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/media/tinymce_upload/a2871708075656221265c782bb4e81ba.jpg

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/media/tinymce_upload/49337e00a5be6cf27a9c19c1936652ff.gif

 

TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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Particularly as my reply includes an image, using the 'Blue Button' may result in your reply being held back for image approval, even though it is an existing image.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[geejbee]

Good evening. Apparantly I can post again now.

Many thanks to RAF96 and Chrissof for you very comprehensive replies.

In no particular order, I changed the address for the jinty and it worked again straight away. I have since changed it back to the original 03 and it works fine so I have no idea what that was all about, and probably wouldn't understand even if it was explained to me. The recommendation to send my select away for upgrades etc at a cost of about £18 seems very worthwhile.

The original power rail I received with the Somerset Belle was in fact the correct one and has no capacitor fitted. Finally, thanks for the warnings about running locos on the incorrect track. Its just as well I only did this briefly to try to establish if  it was the locos or power supply that was not working. It has also taught me that I know even less about electronics than I thought I did. 

Thanks again for you time and advice.

[Chrissaf]

I changed the address for the Jinty and it worked again straight away. I have since changed it back to the original 03 and it works fine so I have no idea what that was all about,

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The chances are you had a transient short circuit and the Jinty DCC Address was corrupted. You were lucky that you were able to recover the situation without the need to perform a factory reset (which requires the 1.6 firmware).

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Thank you also for the detailed feedback of what you did and how your issue was resolved. Very few think to let us know what went well and how a successful outcome was achieved. It's more often than not just a lazy 'one liner' such as 'Now sorted thanks' and many times not even that.

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Just be aware, that normally you would be expected to change loco DCC addresses away from the default 003 to something different and unique once they have been tested. This way, the default 003 DCC Address is always left spare to test that new DCC fitted purchase or decoder you fit yourself.