Scale speeds in Railmaster

[Jazzonics]

Anyone help?

I have been trying to get things to work and for some reason all my scale speed settings seem to have gone wild and a 10 mph selection sets my shunter off at a hare raising speed. How can l get them back to normal again.

[Chrissaf]

I have been trying to get things to work......

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What precisely have you been tinkering with and why?

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You may possibly have to 'bite the bullet' and delete the affected locos from the RailMaster roster [loco list] and add them again from scratch.

[Jazzonics]

I have been trying to get things to work......

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What precisely have you been tinkering with and why?

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You may possibly have to 'bite the bullet' and delete the affected locos from the RailMaster roster [loco list] and add them again from scratch.

I don't know what happened but l followed your advice and deleted all Loco's off my list and then followed an earlier post on manually installing a Loco and found that if l manually install a Loco it sets the max speed on the loco contol psnel to 127mph and even though l set the shunt speed to 10mph it rockets away if l use the tortoise button  so l think my speed scaling has changed somehow. I am using version 1.72 of Railmaster and tried to upgrade to 1.73 but my PC advised that it terminated my download as the software was considered a threat. Don't think it's my day to use Railmaster.

[Chrissaf]

....it sets the max speed on the loco control panel to 127mph

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The reference to 127 is not MPH. It specifies the number of DCC decoder speed steps. So even if the maximum speed is 80 MPH it still takes 127 speed steps to get there. This is a quirk of RailMaster that happens when manually adding a loco rather than using the Hornby database for Hornby R numbered locos.

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I am using version 1.72 of RailMaster and tried to upgrade to 1.73 but my PC advised that it terminated my download as the software was considered a threat.

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I assume then that you are using a fully patched version of Windows 10, possibly the latest 2004 edition. If you are, then this security 'false positive' is totally normal and expected. The latest version of Windows has had its 'security' beefed up and now considers RailMaster as an unrecognised application. Either because RM is written in obsolete 'MS visual basic 6' for Windows XP or because HRMS have decided not to pay to have RM certified with Microsoft.

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It is however a false positive. It is an easy task to 'over-ride' this security warning trigger and continue with the installation without issue. This security issue has been raised before on the forum.

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...but l followed your advice and deleted all Loco's

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Oh dear .... you've jumped the gun. I said "You may possibly have to 'bite the bullet'.........." I was waiting for you to answer the first part of the reply "What precisely have you been tinkering with and why?" before deciding what further action to advise you actually take.

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Your original post really doesn't give much information about what you are trying to achieve with your tinkering. You also haven't given any information regarding what locos are being affected ... i.e are they Hornby locos with R numbers or another brand. What brand / model of decoder etc etc. The more detailed information you give, the easier it is to give targeted advice. Poor quality information just means you get general guesswork advice or no advice at all.

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PS - Please do not use the 'blue button' to reply ... it does nothing to help with reading the thread dialogue. It is much better to just write your reply in the 'Reply Text Box' at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

 

[Chrissaf]

Jazz, see also my reply to your other near identical post.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/programming-non-hornby-locomotives/?p=1

[Jazzonics]

Notes on Railmaster Loco Deployment

Having read carefully your advice and looked at the manual again l removed all existing Loco’s from my system.  l then began the process of deploying locomotives again.

Over the last 3 to 4 years, while building the layout, l used Hornby 0-6-0 Loco R1173 as my development Loco. It will also be used to drive my track cleaning train as I discovered that PECO Nickel Silver track tends to oxidise quite quickly leading to frustration when trying to operate. It deployed successfully, from the Railmaster Database, showing a cruise of 40mph and in small blue print beneath the Cruise Box a top speed of 45mph. On the small Loco Control Panel, the correct Cruise and Shunting speeds displayed for the hare and the tortoise modes and the slider showed a top speed of 45mph. Operating the Loco the speeds felt correct and I was reassured that no lasting damage had occurred to my Railmaster installation.

The second Loco l added was a Hornby 0-4-0 Peckett R3427. This item deployed successfully, from the Railmaster Database, giving a Shunting Speed of 7mph, Cruising speed of 10mph and in blue print a top speed of 10mph. On the small Loco Control Panel, the correct Cruise and Shunting speeds displayed for the hare and the tortoise modes and the slider showed a top speed of 10mph. Operating the Loco the speeds felt correct.

I then decided to add a non-Hornby Loco and I started with a Hattons 0-4-0 Barclay, which l had expectations as having an overall performance similar to the Hornby Peckett. I created an image of the Barclay and read the not to clear instructions in the section of Reading and Writing Locomotive CV’s for non-Hornby Loco’s in the manual. I was sent some links kindly by yourself where you had linked all the information on deploying non-Hornby Loco’s which made things a lot clearer. I followed the much clearer instuctions prepared by Chrissaf for entering a non Hornby Loco into RailMaster and was able to add the basics for the Barclay. I set the Cruise at 10 and the Shunting at 5mph. I noticed straight away that no Maximum Speed in blue appeared below the Cruise Box. I then read and wrote CV’s to the Loco while it was on my Test Track, which is a strainght length of track about 600mm long. On the small Loco Control Panel, the correct Cruise and Shunting speeds displayed for the hare and the tortoise modes but the slider showed a top speed of 127mph. Operating the Loco the tortoise and hare speeds it was obviously not reflecting the correct speeds as the Barclay was more like an HST.  

My first investigation was then into what was the Loco decoder really holding. The decoder fitted to the Barclay is a Guagemaster DCC21/22. I also noticed that the values in CV3 to CV6 were suspect as CV5 and CV 6 were both 0. I contacted Hattons and they provided me with additional information to set up the Decoder. This resulted in me writing in the CV values of CV3 – 4, CV4 – 4, CV5 – 72, and CV6 – 24. This did not actually change the resultant performance of the Loco and no Maximum speed appeared below the Cruise Box and the slider still showed 127mph.

My conclusion from these investigations was that l needed to investigate the simulated speeds. As l had not available the items of track to build a test circuit and thought it unlikely l was the first to discover this problem, I researched the internet. I discovered a table prepared by a group in Elgin that had obviously seen this occurrence. They had looked at this problem and had established a scaled time miles per second for OO scale Loco’s over a 1ft, 6ft and 75ft length of track. So, I calculated the circumference of a 2nd Radius track and attempted to establish values l could use in setting up the simulated speeds for non-Hornby Loco’s. This gave me a value of approx. 47 seconds for 10mph. I then tried to set this up for the Barclay and succeeded in getting a Maximum Speed in blue below the Cruise Box of 10mph. The slider on the small panel now read 10mph instead of 127mph. When l tried the Barclay out the speeds of cruise and shunting were much lower, but obviously still to high to be realistic. By using the slider l could now control the Loco much more gradually and can achieve speeds comparable with the Hornby Peckett.

However, l still cannot use the Hare and the Tortoise buttons which wil make operations more difficult in the future. As l have a number of larger Hatton, Bachmann and Dapol Loc’s, mostly fitted with sound decoders, that l want to deploy  l fear that l may damage them if l cannot solve the simulated speed problem.

I apologise for the length of this communication but felt l owed you as full an explanation of what l found as possible in the hope that it can facilitate deriving a solution.

Regards Jazzonics

[Chrissaf]

the slider still showed 127mph.

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I've already explained this twice ... this is the third time.

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IT IS NOT SHOWING 127 MPH. THE SLIDER IS INDICATING 127 SPEED STEPS WHICH IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

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Please re-read my previous replies with respect to your misunderstanding about the displayed 127 number

[zeroOneman]

on the subject of scale speeds - without the elusive loco detection module I've never understood how to calibrate my locos to get accurate scale speeds, so I just guess & then set the cruise speed to something that represents a sensible speed. 

To help me get confidence in my guesswork I knocked up a speed detector - this works in n gauge & OO gauge... https://shedendrly.wordpress.com/2020/08/07/arduino-based-speed-detector/

[96RAF]

Using scale speed seems to generate more poor reports than good and especially when folk have tried to employ the calibration method issued by RM.

 

I stay well away from it and post given database shunt and cruise speeds that are typical to loco type then adjust those set values if thought necessary.

[BagEndJct]

I too have stopped using scale speeds. I was getting particular problems with recent locos I have bought which have been fitted with Loksound v5 decoders. 

[96RAF]

There will come a time when all decoders will self calibrate to a locos motor characteristics. Some decoders already have this facility whereby you place the loco on track, set a value in a certain Cv and the loco starts, runs and stops having self calibrated and written the necessary values to the necessary CVs.

[Michael_A]

This whole topic confuses me. If the max position of the slider is speed steps and not max speed for the loco, why does it correspond exactly to the MPH values in the 'tortoise and hare' buttons? And why, when I enter a top speed in the speed correction screen, does it set that value on the scale?

I DO use scale speeds and it works, but there are some provisos.

1. You need something to measure the scale speed of your loco. I have a Black Cat technologies speed wagon (sadly no longer available) but there are alternatives, even your phone stopwatch and a fixed distance.
2. You need to first set the speed range of your loco in the decoder settings CV5 and CV6, or complex speed curve, if teh decoder allows of course, scarp TTS...) so that at max on the Elite the loco runs at the maximum speed that will be used in RailMaster. 50% should ideally also be 50% of the max. This then gives you a limited and linear range as a starting point (I don't know the workaround here if you are using elink) Warm teh loco up first by running it for about 15 minutes on a medium speed (New locos also need running in first)
3. That done, I calibrate the speed range in RailMaster, getting a compromise between the max and cruise speeds by entering a speed correction value. (Annoyingly this disappears if you have to go back in to change it!) You also have to ensure the loco list on the right refreshes (enter loco settings and come out again if it doesn't which seems to force a refresh). You also need to bring the loco to a FULL stop and then restart it again to see if this has changed the actual max speed. I do this 2 or 3 times to make sure. I would add here that even without setting the max and med speed on e.g. a TTS decoder using the correction factor is still very effective.
4. Accept the fact that you will never get 100% accurate and linear speeds that match what RailMaster says. I am happy if I'm within + / - 10% of the max and that at 50% on the slider the loco runs at roughly half the speed of the max.
5. Finally if you really want to adjust the decoder forward or reverse trim so the loco is calibrated running in reverse as well as forwards

The final annoying quirk is the fact that after adding a loco, if you click on it, e.g. to move it up so that it's in your chosen order, it loses both its max speed value and defaults to 0. something or just 1, and it loses its category, branch, express etc. This you can reset manually, however to set the max speed again you have to go into speed correction, and then you are forced to enter a correction factor anyway, as that field will be blank. I always start at 5.0. Increasing that value speeds the loco up, reducing it slows it down. Or you can use the track distance they recommend of course, but I find loco speeds change on straights and curves and as the motor warms up.

I have done this with over 100 locos now (yes I have OCD) and with the exception of quirky coreless motors has worked a treat.