Problem running programs

[Forest Gate]

Hi.

Sorry this is so long winded, but it is a precis of two years of frustration, trial and error, and getting nowhere.

I have requested assistance with this before but the problem still remains and I really, REALLY, need help.  Practical help for now but if the problem persists it may be psychiatric!  With Railmaster, creating and running programs of any length is almost impossible as commands, usually turnout operations, are spuriously missed which destroys the flow of the whole scenario unless I happen to notice the error and manually ‘fire’ the turnout.  The frustration is obviously compounded as locos, turnouts and rolling stock have to be returned to their respective start positions and the affected program restarted from scratch. Failure can occur at any time in a scenario and affects any turnout at random.  Very occasionally a loco will miss a command but not with anywhere near the same regularity as turnouts.

My setup is either a win 10 laptop (hi gaming spec) or win 7 desktop, both with Railmaster 1.73 and both with pro pack connecting via either an e-link or Elite controller, both with latest firmware and powered by a DCC concepts regulated (5A) power supply. Power draw rarely exceeds 1.5 amp even with several locos running with sound. The layout comprises of 9 electrical districts each powered by individual buss and 40 DCC cobalt omega digital turnout motors powered from a dedicated buss. 3 snubbers are fitted at extreme ends of 3 of the cable runs.  All cable connections/joints/track droppers are soldered except the main distribution block and turnout motor clip connections. Elite and e-link are always connected to selected computer on Com 2 or 3.

To date I have invested a small fortune in fault finding: changed computers, changed elite and e-link controllers (present ones are brand new), changed USB leads, changed power supplies, changed selected turnout motors (sufficient to discount them as the cause), renewed snubbers, rewired turnout motor supplies (they were fed from respective track power district buss, now all connected to a dedicated supply leg).

My latest experiment was to change the .ini file setting to double pulse for turnout operation but didn’t see any appreciable difference.  The problem does seem more pronounced when using the Elite, but resetting after any derailment shorts with the e-link can be even more frustrating than this problem, often requiring a complete shut-down/restart – that is why I would prefer to connect through the elite. 

I cannot believe I am the only one to suffer this issue. Three questions – 1. Has anyone reading this had a similar problem and if so, how was it resolved?  2.  Can someone in the know suggest what settings (baud rate etc. or .ini file) to tweak?  I am loathed to alter the settings to experiment when I do not know what they may affect. 3. Would it be of any use connecting the turnout supply buss via a boost unit fed from the elite boost connection? Don’t want to buy one to find it makes no difference. I’ve spent enough.

I thought I had solved the problem some time ago by uninstalling RM, clearing all RM hidden files manually and reloading RM.  I did manage to get a fairly complex 30 minute scenario involving various locos and numerous turnout changes to run right through back to back twice without a single glitch.  However, my absolute joy and feeling of ecstasy was short lived as the gremlins subsequently returned, increasing in frequency with time.

On a, I think, unrelated note.  I do seem to have trouble dragging my plan with the mouse from left to right & vice versa.  It moves very jerkily and settles wherever it wants. I also tried setting the left- hand side of the plan to one floating button and the right-hand side to another button as a work around, but the right-hand button only holds its program for a couple of operations before becoming un-programmed and non-responsive.  Ideas?

 

 

[St1ngr4y]

Hi FG,

 

First of all, my thanks for providing such a comprehensive description of your setup. You would think anyone reading wouldn't need to ask any clarification questions - however ...

 

You mention that you use two computers and you have two controllers, an Elite and an eLink. I assume, however, from your description above that you only use one computer and one controller at a time, and when one of these combinations is in use, all three of your buses are connected to the "Track output" of that Controller ?

 

For quite a while, I ran with an Elite as controller A connected to a Track bus, and an eLink as controller B connected to an Accessory bus. Earlier this year, I replaced the Elite with a new eLink as Controller A, so now use 2 eLinks as Controllers A & B. Past experience has shown me that the eLink is much more reliable than the Elite in "not losing" commands sent to it from Railmaster. As well as making sure that you are using the Hornby recommended baud rates for each device, you need also to ensure that this baud rate is reflected in the appropriate COMx port setting in Device Manager. Have you ever considered using your Elite as Controller A and eLink as controller B?

 

I would definitely stick with Double Pulse = 1 in the INI file. There are two places where a command can get lost on its way from RM to the decoder - firstly in the USB link from the pc to the controller, and secondly, from the controller to the decoder. This entry in the INI file means that you are doubling the chance of the command getting through both of these journeys.

 

When you say that commands are spuriously missed, are some turnouts more prone to failure than others ? Maybe it is worth creating one or two test programs which will repeatedly send left then right commands to one or more turnouts.

 

Also, how much of a time gap do you allow in your programs between each turnout operation? There is an INI setting "Points timer=0.75" which prevents turnouts being changed more rapidly than this setting - maybe setting this to a higher value may help...

 

Anyway, these are the only things I can think of right now. If you decide to act on any of them, let us know how you get on.

 

Ray

 

[96RAF]

Ref the Boost idea.

 

Boost is a bad nomenclature for the functionality of those connections.

 

The Elite BOOST output does not provide a boosted anything, it is merely a low energy REPEATER of the DCC signal; this is passed by way of an R8239 Power and Signal Booster to a separately powered and otherwise isolated second or subsequent power district. There must be no direct connection between the Boost and the second district track.

 

A common user error is to connect the Boost output to the main Track output, which immediately fries the Elite Programming facility, as it shares the low energy output circuitry with the Boost output.

[Forest Gate]

Firstly, thank you st1ngr4y and RAF96 for your prompt replies.  RAF, you have probably "scared me off" the booster idea. Although my turnouts are now on a dedicated district, so would not be dirctly connected to the main track output, power to the point insul-frog is supplied from the respective turnout supply so could inadvertantly cross connect via a short to the track supply.  Plus - I think st1ngr4y has some avenues worth investigating first. 

Hello st1ngr4y. Indeed, I only ever use EITHER the elite or e-link with EITHER the laptop or desktop.  All the busses (districts) eminate from one distribution block fed from the single controller track supply, each district being individually switched for ease of fault finding.  Tomorrow I am going to try your suggestion with the elite as controller A and the e-link as controller B.  I can then connect the turnouts buss direct to the e-link. I too noticed that the e-link "lost" less commands but it can be so frustrating following a derailment short to get up and running again, hence my preferrence for the Elite.    

I have, however, been operating for some days on the misconception that I had changed to .INI to "Pulse = 1".  But today I found the setting has reverted to "0", probably inadvertantly at some stage in the past week whilst uploading usb backups between computers.  I re-selected Pulse = 1 and the miss-fires are noticeably reduced again and have been all day. I am careful in my programming and adhere to the minimum 3 second rule strictly but I may also try upping the 0.75 setting to 1. What is the highest you would advise?

I already have a "test" program where I run through all turnout motors L & R twice before operating programs, just to make sure none are stuck.  Occasionally one would "miss" and although spurious, there are some more regular than others.  They are the ones I renewed but with no percievable improvement. None failed during test since changing to Pulse = 1.

I will be continuing my onslaught tomorrow, or should I say "Lockdown locomotion"  but with renewed vigour.  I thank you for giving me some hope that it is parhaps not a fault incorporated by me during initial installation, which I was beginning to believe as the only explanation left.

Watch this space and stay healthy

Graham

[Forest Gate]

Sorry.  Any suggestions on the trackplan and floatin buttons programming?

[Fishmanoz]

Just more on the boost idea, definitely not needed on the basis of your reported current draw.  However, it would mean 5hat a short on the layout will only shut down the track and not your points operation.

 

On your floating buttons, suggest you report this to HRMS via the email facility in the Help screen.  However, first update to latest v1.75 from the link at the top of the forum, this being the first thing they'll ask you to do anyway. 

[Chrissaf]

RailMaster 1.73 not 1.75

 

Possibly thinking of 1.45 for the Elite perhaps?

[Forest Gate]

Railmaster 1.73 already installed. I suspect the jerky movement could be connected to the resolution setting of the screen (high) but the floating buttons unable to hold a program is annoying.

[Chrissaf]

Graham, just an observational comment to make your long posts a little easier for members to read and digest. I can see that you have put your text into paragraphs, but no gaps are showing between them.

 

Whereas this reply has clear gaps between blocks of text as indicated above and below this specific paragraph. When you are writing your post, type two consecutive 'carriage returns' [enter or return key on your keyboard]. It does look odd when you are in the post creation window, but when the post is published, only the first 'carriage return' is removed by the forum software, the second one sticks and generates the paragraph gap.

 

This TIP is TIP number 4 in my TIPs page list. My other TIPs can help a forum member to get the best 'user experience' out of this custom written forum software.

 

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

[St1ngr4y]

Hi Graham,

 

I have a power booster installed between controller A and the track bus. This means that short circuits which occur on the track cause the power booster to trip, not the controller. The only problem is that to reset the booster, you need to disconnect its power supply, then plug it in again. I got around this by adding a single pole push-to-break push button into the power supply cable.

 

An alternative for floating buttons for moving your plan is by using a one-line program, with a button to run the program on your diagram. Problem is you can't use it if you're already running a program.

 

Ray

[Forest Gate]

Thanks Ray (and RAF).  Two very useful tips which I will bear in mind.  The great news (for me) is that after months and months of sheer frustration, I can now run programs without the agony of a points misfire ruining the scenario.  Basically, following your suggestions, I made a few tweaks within the .ini file but I'm sure the "Double Pulse" was the critical factor. 

 

Having needlessly spent hours separating my points motors from the track supplies and creating a dedicated power supply for them, I may now experiment with keeping the elite as controller A for track supplies and e-link as controller B for points etc.

 

Stay healthy

 

Graham 

[Forest Gate]

Good morning.  Thanks for the tips Ray, RAF & Fishmanoz.  Firstly, I have found a workround for the buttons:  I noticed that the problem only seems to affect the last button on the right of the row, so I have simply created a dummy button on the right - problem solved.  Hornby are still thinking about it.  Not holding my breath, after suggestions following my help request with the main problem included faulty turnout motors, poor installation, faulty controller, inadequate computer specification etc. they never mentioned ini settings. 

 

As for the main headache of commands missing during program running - gone.  After well over 18 months of heartache and frustration I can now run and enjoy lengthy and complex (by my standard) programs without a turnout misfire ruining the scenario.  I followed your advice and tweaked the .ini file settings.  I am fairly convinced "Double Pulse" was the main, if not the only required remedy and I would urge others with this nightmare to try that first. Certainly try that before contacting Hornby. (Don't get me started on that again!!)

 

Having got the problem sorted, I am now considering another of your suggestions - running the Elite as controller A and e-Link as controller B, supplying the turnouts and accessories only.  As all the wiring has already been modified, the work would be minimal.  However, as the frogs are powered from the turnout motors, should a derailment occur on the point creating a short, would the e-link AND elite trip out?  If so, would the reset button on the elite restore power or would I also have to restart the e-link?  That would be counter-productive and I may be better sticking with the elite and use the e-link for armchair decoder programming on my computer downstairs.

 

Once again, many thanks for your assistance.  I have finally rediscovered pleasure in layout operation rather than trepidation and frustration.

 

Graham

[Chrissaf]

However, as the frogs are powered from the turnout motors, should a derailment occur on the point creating a short, would the e-link AND elite trip out?

 

That proposed configuration has got a more serious issue to resolve.

 

Your DCC Concepts iP Digital point motors derive the switched frog power feed from the DCC input terminals on the iP Digitals.

 

So based upon that statement, consider this. The main track DCC supply is coming from the track output of controller A.

 

The frog DCC supply (power) is coming from controller B

 

Thus when rolling stock traverses the frog, the metal wheels will short the outputs of the two controller track outputs together, and controller damage could possibly result.

 

Not only that, but even if no damage is done to the controllers, the DCC signal to the frog does not contain any locomotive commands in it, only DCC Accessory commands. Neither will the digital 'timing' of the two DCC signals be synchronised.

 

If you want to continue with this proposed configuration you will need to modify the frog wiring to the iP Digital point motors.

 

The schematic below shows how the wiring to the iP Digitals can be modified to provide a solution. But this can only be done if the auxiliary changeover contacts are not being used for other things such as point position indicators or signals. If the frog generates a 'short circuit' reverse the wires on terminals 4 & 5 of the iP Digital.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/0fe8142d2190959a66d20024e938a8c6.jpg

 

The schematic above has been posted from my library of images as this question of using iP Digital point motors with live frogs and a dual BUS configuration has come up before.

 

[Forest Gate]

Thanks Chrisaf.  Firstly, sorry for posting basically two replies to earlier posts.  I thought the first one hadn't been posted as I couldn't see it when logging on.  Replied again but now realise the first reply had posted, but was hiding on page 2. Doh!

 

You have confirmed my suspicions about the dual controller configuration.  The majority of my auxiliary switches on the motors are utilised for associated signal control and distribution of dependant track power supplies which I am not about to change so it is now my intention to stick to the Elite.  As my only interest in the e-link was the reduced instances of missing program commands, now that problem has been resolved I prefer the Elite mainly for ease of power restoration following a fault.  The e-link and my second RM software will remain my armchair decoder CV adjustment and experimentation facility.

 

Thanks again.  Stay healthy and keep up the good work.

 

Graham

[Chrissaf]

😎