Converting Legacy DC locomotives to DCC + Sound

[DerekGH]

Can legacy D.C. locos be upgraded for DCC control and TTS sound

i have a Hornby Flying Scotsman and a HORNBY 00 GAUGE R305 LMS CORONATION CLASS LOCO 6234 DUCHESS OF ABERCORN 4-6-2. Both Tender Driven locos. Both the same age.
I want to upgrade to dcc control and add sound?

Has anyone done this? Any issues or complexities found during modification over? Any advise would be helpful!

Looking at buying a used Elite R2814 controller, with V 3.x firmware and want to update to latest firm ware.

anyone experienced in doing this, any issues. How reliable would the Elite be after 4.5 firmware update.

Problems encountered and advice most welcome

[ColinB]

Yes, I have done both. In my case I also upgraded the tender motor on both to 5 pole. I did it the opposite way to a modern Hornby loco, the DCC socket is in the loco and the loco and tender are connected by the same 4 way connector. I also added extra pickups in the loco so it picks up power from both wheels (the Flying Scotsman already has the slots for sword type pickups). So you will need to insulate the motor so it is no longer connected to the track. When you have done the conversion don't use a Hornby decoder it is not up to the job, look around for one with about 800 milliamp continuous current drive. I use Zimo ones, for me they are the only ones that haven't blown up due to excess current. Hope that helps.

[Chrissaf]

What a load of questions in one shotgun blast. Will try to answer in blocks of similar topics if I can.

 

Old Loco Conversions.

 

Within reason, any loco can be converted to DCC. But the older the loco is, the more potential issues will arise.

 

For one thing, older locos tend to have motors that draw far more current than more modern locos, particularly if they have worn weak magnets. It is not unheard of for some motors with weak magnets to draw up to 1 amp of current.

 

This raises the first issue of conversion. Hornby R8249 and TTS Sound decoders are limited to 500mA [0.5 amp] supported current.

 

Thus older locos can burn out Hornby decoders including TTS sound ones.

 

Any DCC conversion should be preceded by performing a 'Stall Test'. A stall test will identify the maximum current that the loco will draw and therefore the decoder current specification that needs to be sourced. If over 500mA, then a wider net needs to be cast outside the Hornby portfolio and this could preclude TTS as a viable option to consider.

 

This YouTube video elegantly shows the effect of weak motor magnets on motor current draw.

 

The second issue of conversion. Loco chassis and motor suitability. In order to install a DCC decoder it is necessary to electrically isolate both sides of the motor from the wheels and pickups. Some older locos use the metal chassis of the loco for one side of the electrical path. Thus making electrical isolation a little more difficult. Some much older locos use a 'split chassis' where both sides of the chassis [insulated from each other] provide the electrical path to each side of the motor. Thus older locos can really throw the spanner in the works when it comes to conversion methodologies. Then there is motor type. Hornby / Triang X03/04 motors are easy to convert, but Hornby / Triang Ringfield motors come in different variants and each have their own conversion quirks to overcome. This web page gives guidance on Ringfield conversion, scroll down the page that opens to the 'Ringfield' section.

 

Tender Driven Locos.

 

Tender driven locos tend to typically have one side of the tender motor connected to the tender chassis to pick up power from one side of the rails. The other side of the rails gets the power picked up from the wheels of the loco itself on the opposite loco side to the tender and passed back to the tender via an electrical coupling. These have their own conversion issues too, due to the potential difficulty isolating the motor.

 

Elite and Elite firmware.

 

There is no Version 3 or 4.5 firmware. I think you probably mean version 1.3 and version 1.45 firmware.

 

Firstly you need a Windows PC to update the firmware yourself. The firmware updater is not supported on an Apple IOS [Macintosh] platform. You first connect the Elite to the PC and let Windows [version 7, 8 or 10] load the driver, once the driver is successfully installed and the Elite recognised in Windows 'Device Manager' then you can start the firmware update process. All explained in the link below:

 

Updating Elite firmware [written for Ver1.43 but still the same for current version]

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/updating-firmware-on-the-elite

 

Alternative Elite firmware update method if documented method fails [see reply by Peter Rowney – 2nd post up from the bottom of the page].

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/elite-bricked/?p=2/#post-264669

 

Most users update the firmware without issue. It is usually only the 'users' for which it does not go smoothly who raise posts about it in this forum. I suggest, that it is more likely to go smoothly if following the documentation in the links above rather than Hornby's own 'How To' documentation, which quite frankly is poorly written.

 

TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

 

See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

 

 

[DerekGH]

All very interesting and thank you for your replies.

It obvious I need the set up a loco test station with a rolling road that the locos can be fully tested and load tested. I have planned to go down the DCC route so need to consider my next actions and test loco loads. I have two tender drive loco and I am looking at possible motor replacement for the ring field motors. The other locos are small tank locos so they should not have too high a load.

the video showed remagnetising motors which I was surprised at. These must be very old magnets. I dis not see any that look like my locos ring field magnet. Not sure about remagnetising. Being an electronics engineer I will be thoroughly investigating my locos to ensure loads are low.

[96RAF]

A loco test station is a good idea.

In addition to a decoder test rigs [ESU) mounted for convenience on a combined points and signal test board (this used when programming acc decoders] I have a rolling road and a fixed track linked to an Elite Track and Prog outputs by way of a series of ON-OFF-ON DPDT switches, so I can run various checks, program a decoder, test run a loco, etc. The fixed track is also used for stall checks.

 

Just be aware that a rolling road offers little or no resistance so a loco that runs OK on the RR may fail to drag its own weight around the track if the motor has a weak magnet. The old sintered iron magnets in X03/X04 motors used the motor frame as a keeper, so if you take the magnet out if rapidly loses its magnetism, hence the use of these ancient tech re-mag machines. You can replace the magnet in some motors with neos but not all motors react well to the change. You can also replace the innards of some ringfields with DVD motors and there are kits out there to make this easier.

[ColinB]

The biggest issue I found with testing the ones I converted was going round bends and pointwork. They worked ok when running over a length of straight track (or slighly curved as it was flexitack) but when I put it on the main layout I go a whole load of different issues. Things like pickups not working that well, decoders that weren't up to the job (two just died with current overload) and stalls when going over pointwork (usually back to back spacing errors). I suppose I made things worse because I decided to upgrade the front and back bogies, the front ones were not an issue, but the back one used to have one of those plastic axled things, replacing it with decent wheels on a normal axle caused no end of issues.