Points motor and Decoder problem

[Lidders46]

Hi All

I am new to model tracks, decide to start late in life!!

I spend all my working years in electronics, so with small layout using Trackmat plan 8217 and DCC Select Digital and I'm on my way.

Track down on ballast running a small engine ok! 

So I thought I'd fit point motor to the layout only have 7 point positions.

Started with one point motor, I have a digital points decode R8247, fitted the power clip into the rails for Track A & B connection.

I have bought the Hornby P9300W 4A supply as the R8014 instructions' advices the PSU in the Select is not man enough for point motor R8014

I have checked my points wiring via the 15Vdc Aux output on the Select and the pointers motor snaps nicely into each position.

The problem I'm experiencing is that I program LA 61 select on my Select and it duly flashes red 3 times not 7 as the manual. ( Everything I select for the first time flashes red 3 times- hope that's results of software update?)

Then when I type 61 select and press an arrow key, P5 or P6 appears, but only a faint or faint chatter from the points motor.

To me what's happening is power is lacking via the Points decoder and the power clip, but is that the answer.

I'm hoping get an answer and help from the long modellers on the forum

Please can anybody help??

Best regards

David

Sorry for any missed spelling or grammar J

[Chrissaf]

First of all thank you for the level of detail in your post, something we see too little of. It really helps to target a resolution to your issue.

Your reference to chatter indicates that your Select firmware might be at revision 1.1. This Select firmware version has a bug which damages the R8247 and causes the chatter on port 1. Port 1 then becomes permanently damaged, but ports 2 to 4 usually remain operational. Until this is resolved, you must disconnect your R8247 to prevent further damage.

When you power up the Select, three numbers appear sequentially. You need to be watching the LCD screen as you apply power because the number appearances are brief. The three numbers take the form XX 30 03 where XX is the Select firmware version, if your XX is 11, then you do indeed have version 1.1 firmware and you must have this firmware upgraded by Hornby before trying to use your Select with R8247 Accessory Decoders.

The current version is 1.6 which will display on a Select as either 16 or 20 for the XX number [20 will only display on the very latest Select hardware, else on older Selects 16 will be the highest version number]. To update the firmware you need a returns number from Hornby Customer Services and the charge is approx £15 plus your sending postage costs.

Once upgraded [turn around is typically less than 10 days], you need to download the Select 1.5 manual plus the 1.6 manual addendum from the support section of this website, as the user interface "how to use the Select" is completely different with the new firmware. 1.6 / 2.0 firmware completely transforms the Select controller functions and features and provides support for Hornby TTS decoders plus the ability to write to any CV in the 1 to 255 range.

The R8247 that is chattering the point motor will probably need replacing under Warranty [if applicable] as well, as the fault is physical electronics component damage and is not fixable via a factory reset. Damage usually only occurs if the chattering has been allowed to continue for several minutes, so if you have not left it chattering, then you may be lucky and the R8247 is not permanently damaged.

If your XX number is not 11, tell us what it is, as something else is causing your issue and needs further diagnostic investigation.

If your Select firmware is not version 1.1 but you purchased the R8247 as a previously owned product, then there are a lot of R8247s in the previously owned market that are being 'sold on' because they have been damaged by the 1.1 Select bug. You can test for this by powering up from scratch and not trying to operate port 1. Instead try ports 2 to 4, if these work, then that indicates that the R8247 is most likely a Select 1.1 damaged unit.

This is a very long reply and you are a new forum first post member. So please note that the "blue button with white arrow" is not a "Reply to this post" button. To reply it is preferred if you would scroll to the bottom of the page and write any reply you want to make in the "Reply Text Box" and click the green "Post Reply" button.

[Rog RJ]

I thought it was version 1.1 that caused damage?

[Chrissaf]

Quite correct Rog. I was writing from memory. I have updated my reply to correct the firmware version number. Thank you for the correction.

[Lidders46]

Hi Chrissaf

Thank you for your very succinct reply.

Firstly when I power up the Select, it reads "20-30-03" contrary to my Op manual which states "15-30-03". It also states when addressing a Loco after pressing select the red light will flash 7 times for a successful address, whereas mine only flashes 3 times for for a successful address.

So I assume my Select is current as I only bought from Amazon in December. It has 04/21 etched in the back, which I assume is the month of manufacture.

Secondly, I think I mislead with "faint chatter" on the points motor. It was more of an intermittent click, or just one click either side as I switched the L & R arrows, with the P5 & P6 showing.

I basically feel there is not a "strong" enough path for current to run from my 4 Amp supply into my Select out the "Track A & B" connection to the power track connector and along the track into the track connector, (through I might add some very loose wired pins into the connector) then into "Track A & B" input on the Digital Points & Accessories Decoder R8247 Version 2.0.

Incidentally the length of wire from one and only Points motor ( at the moment) is approx. 19 cm or 6'0" I could probably reduce it to 120cm of 4' 0" as the "crow flies".

I hope this helps a little more.

Thank you for your help so far.

Best Regards

David

[96RAF]

Correct - yours is the latest face-lift Select. You have to read the v1.5 user manual in conjunction with the v1.6/2.0 addendum.

Points - Take a hefty pair of wires direct from the Select Track outputs to the acc decoder and see if that improves things. At first power up there is a time lag whilst the R8247 onboard capacitors charge up.

To connect more acc decoders simply run your feed wires into a terminal block and from there to each of your R8247s. The layout feed can be Tee’d into this as well.

I run a twin bus round my single garage sized layout, one bus for track, the other for points and signals, with the R8247s placed adjacent to where they are used to keep the hefty port wires as short as possible.

[Chrissaf]

Just to add to Rob's reply. The R8247 is notoriously underpowered. It contains a weak CDU which is not helped by the charging voltage feed within the R8247 being limited to less than 14 volts. Solenoid points work their best on voltages of either 16 volts AC or 19 volts DC, neither of these voltages are produced by the R8247.

R8014 Solenoid point motors need a lot of current, this is what a CDU is supposed to do, but since the CDU circuit in the R8427 is weak, the current that is available needs to be helped to reach the point motor as much as possible. Thus Rob's recommendation to use thick wiring between the R8247 and the R8014. I suggest wires that are 24/0.2mm. This means 24 strands of wire that are each 0.2mm diameter. I have seen posts on this forum where replacing the point motor wires with thicker wiring has resolved their issues.

Because the output of the R8247 is so weak, the physical alignment of the R8014 under the baseboard has to be absolutely 100% spot on, if off by just a degree, the drag on the Soleniod operating slug can be enough to prevent the point from switching with the R8247, whereas it appears to work OK when powered via another power source, which has enough power to overcome the drag.

If you get a situation where the point motor operates in one direction and not the other [and not attributable to R8014 alignment], then this is a commonly reported miswiring issue. If you experience this, let us know and further wiring guidance can be given.

Note that as the R8247 is based upon CDU technology, the current to operate the point motor comes from the internal CDU capacitors not the 4 amp power supply. The amount of current drawn by a R8247 rarely exceeds 170mA when being charged after firing a point, with an idle current draw nearer 20mA. I suspect the Hornby R8014 documentation recommending a 4 amp supply assumes that the AUX output is being used to operate the point in an Analogue manner and not via R8247 using DCC. The upgrade to the 4 amp supply is still a highly beneficial and worthwhile upgrade for other aspects of layout operation other than operating points.

[Lidders46]

Hi All

I had a very disappointing day on points so to speak.

I decided that I see how near I need to get to the R8014 near the R8247 P&A decoder, with wire length for it to work with what I have.

Unfortunately the R8014 motor just about worked properly directly connected to one of the R8247 P&A decoder o/p

I have a point on my layout where it's not possible to fit an R8014, even with a long bar.

I like to have the motors topside as I like the little shed over the top.

So I have purchased a Hornby R8243 Surface Mounted Point Motor.

I saw on one being fitted to a layout and being connected to a R8247 P&A decoder, but having directly connecting that to the R8247 P&A decoder to see how it work, got very little sign of life.

I called it a day, being tired with no real results and I notice position 1 on the R8247 P&A decoder warm very warm.

I'm hoping to swamp the underside of my layout with thick points wire, but feel I need more guidance.

Having read the posting on the thread and taken what has been advised with devise a plan.

Is it possible to post diagrams on the forum.

I was wondering if some kind soul would draw an "idiots guide" diagram.

This for explaining where the heavy wires, with sizes, need to go, etc and any other track parts/ connectors worth buying, and suggested positions of the R8247 P&A decoders, I will need 2 – with my 7 points.

I want to get the points issue sorted before I crack-on any further with my layout, plus buying any more rolling stock.

Thank you all for your comments, a great help

Best regards

David

[Chrissaf]

Is it possible to post diagrams on the forum.

Yes, you can 'copy n paste' or 'drag n drop' or at a last resort use the image tool in the tool box [icon to the right of the smiley].

Note that any posted images will be sent for moderator approval and will not appear straight away.

Since you are using the R8015 huts, can you post some close up photos showing how the point motor is connected to the point with the hut cover removed. Something obvious might show up in a photo.

Images need to be .JPG .JPEG .PNG and preferably not more than 2MB in size. .BMP and native Apple IOS image file formats are not supported.

You say port 1 gets warm on the R8247. Did you note my previous posted comment about faulty R8247s with port 1 faults being on the previuosly owned market. You never confirmed whether the R8247 was a brand new purchase or not.

You say you got better results with the wires between the point motor and the R8247 being very short, but are they 24/0.2mm thick wires as per my recommendation or thicker?

[Chrissaf]

Some images you requested from my forum boilerplate library.

The official Hornby method is to plug the R8247s into the track using the supplied track connectors [as shown]. Personally I find these track connectors a fault liability. So my preference would be to use screw terminal strips to intercept the Select track feed to the track and use that to connect to the R8247s in either a 'star' formation or a 'cascade'. Cascade shown below:

The schematic below is just a suggestion for the R8217 TrakMat layout that you say you have, the R8247s being mounted under the baseboard in roughly the positions shown in the drawing.

Since you are using the R8217 TrakMat. Check where the points are located, is the sliding point bar rubbing on the TraKMat and causing drag. The TrakMat if used should be glued down completely flat [it really is optional, as most builders just use the Mat as a guide and do their own scenery].

As stated in previous replies, the output of the R8247 is weak and any drag on the movement of the point needs to be minimised. It may be that by not directly connecting the R8014 motor to the point and using the R8015 Hut, you are adding unnecessary drag on the moving parts. Check them to ensure all moving parts are able to move freely.

IMPORTANT OBSERVATION IN YOUR ORIGINAL POST.

You said and I quote:

"Track down on ballast running a small engine ok!"

Now if this means that you have laid a layer of ballast FIRST BEFORE laying the track, then that means that the track will be raised slightly above the baseboard level. Despite what Hornby show in their video, it is always track pinned down first, then fully test before ballast [last].

Now if the track is slightly raised due to the ballast, but the R8014 / R8015 parts are flat on the baseboard, then the operating bar from the R8014 point motor to the point will not be flat and horizontal. This has the potential to cause binding of the operation mechanism. Not only that, but the rough gritty surface of the ballast may be rubbing on the point moving parts under the point. This turned out to be an issue with another novice builders TrakMat layout and the solution was for him to remove all the ballast and start again doing it properly, or if such an onerous task can't be faced, then try shiming the underside of the R8014 mounting with Plasticard to bring it up level with the track.

Note on installing R8243 surface mount motors. The plastic case on these are flimsy and can flex [snagging the soft iron solenoid slug inside] if the mounting screws are over-tightened. The screws should be done up just enough to hold it in place but still allow slight movement with fingertip pressure. The same ballast comment as above regarding being horizontally level with the track also applies.

[96RAF]

The maximum thickness of wire will be controlled by being able to fit it into the R8247 port terminals and the A-B bus terminals.

Just to give you an idea this is my test board wired using DCC Concepts triple points wire. The points and signals are wired with the thinner wire the signals came with.

[Lidders46]

Hi Chrissaf

Thank so much for the excellent reply and diagrams; "above and beyond the call of duty" comes to mind.

The positions of the R8247's are almost where I had in mind, but I will be following your diagram to the letter.

I too think the Hornby Track connecters are awful!

So with that in mind at top of the track plan for the position of R8247 No.2, I was thinking of letting in to the layout, a Hornby R8241 Digital Power Track, to save lengths of wire to the Select and have no better connector than the track.

At the bottom of the Track plan in the lower siding I have a Digital Power Track in the straight piece.

This the edge of the layout I sit at with my Select, so the R8247 No.1 can connect into that, together with the Select Track connections

I am aware how flat and stable the points motor have to be.

So my Points motor is on flat ballast with the section under the slider is clear and checked for freedom of movement.

I have ordered 24/0.2 wire and will rewire my R8014 points motor with it.

I have returned my R8247 back to Amazon as I didn't like the fact that it got warm and have a replacement coming tomorrow.

Once I have all my new items I will star afresh with the wiring and positions.

Once again thank you CHRISSAF, for your great help, and to 96RAF, I have peace of mind that now I can sort this. I will post how I get on.

Best Regards

David

[Lidders46]

Hi All, I'm extremely please to report that the decoder in position 2, on Chris' excellent layout and wiring schematic, is working very well as is the points indicated.

I now can't wait to start on the other 4 points.

As I have now used the Hornby R8014 points and have a R8243 surface mounted type, is there any other points motor manufacturers favoured by members on the forum?

Thank you all again for help to this newbie.

Best regards

David

[Chrissaf]

Apart from the R8247 you sent for replacement due to getting hot. Are you saying that replacing your wiring for thicker 24/0.2mm wire was what actually resolved your issue?

There are a multitude of point motor technologies and types manufactured by all and sundry. Each have their own 'pros and cons'. But given the previous statements about R8247 decoder CDUs being weak, you are probably better off keeping all the same Hornby brand. For example, my R8247s wouldn't work at all with the PECO low energy green coiled point motors I tried, but others report they work with the PECO black coiled versions. In terms of surface mounted motors, you are best keeping with the R8243, as the physical mechanical connection & operating arrangement are designed to fit & work together.

[96RAF]

Peco surface mounted point motors have a tie bar link connection hole that is much larger than the Hornby points tie bar spigot so either you accept it is sloppy or you have to fit a spacer tube with an ID to suit the Hornby point and an OD to suit the Peco motor.

[Lidders46]

Hi Chris

I think it was a combination of a few things.

Positioning the R8247 as shown on your digram of my Trackmat for the 3 points, "shortest distance between two points" or in this case 3, the thicker wire and having a power track point in my layout directly above the input connections to the R8247, giving a very short wired connection.

I'm not sure if it helped, but because my Select is operated from the other side, nearest the 4 points, I doubled up with the wired connection from my Select to a power track point (maximum current flow, minimum resistance)

[Fishmanoz]

If I were thinking alternatives, I wouldn’t be starting with the point motor, I’d be starting with the decoders. Chris has already identified that the CDU is weak and the other issue is that they are older design and not self-learning.

Self-learning decoders are programmed in situ by throwing a switch on the decoder, they do not have to be moved to the programming track, a significant advantage.

For me, it is one of the unsolved mysteries that Hornby chose to upgrade these decoders relatively recently without addressing either of these fundamental shortcomings. I am not suggesting that you cannot get these decoders to work but they are far from robust and reliable in operation in my opinion, and based on the problems reported on the forums.

If you do a forum search on decoders and point motors, you will find mention of many brands as Chris alluded to. Probably the brand mentioned most is DCC Concepts whose products have self-learning decoders in single or multiple units with a separate, strong CDU for each unit. The fact these were available when Hornby did their upgrade only deepens the mystery for me, even though Rob has previously mentioned some of the limitations Hornby worked with when doing their upgrade.

[96RAF]

‘...when Hornby did their upgrade only deepens the mystery for me, even though Rob has previously mentioned some of the limitations Hornby worked with when doing their upgrade...’

For the benefit of newer members - Unfortunately at the time of the upgrade Hornby were in a state of moratorium and could not bear the cost of hardware upgrades to install a set-learn switch, but as a stop gap for another long awaited production run opted instead for a software revision to provide a wider range of outputs, e.g. speed and number of pulses, cascade port firing, etc.

Thoughts - we know the output efficiency of a CDU is dependant upon the input voltage, hence why it is preferred to use an external CDU on a higher voltage rather than the weedy DCC voltage. With this in mind I wondered if an on-board step up buck convertor would improve the CDUs in accessory decoders. I know one has to trade voltage against current with these devices but a CDU only needs to trickle charge after the initial in-rush at start up.

[Lidders46]

At the risk of boring everybody with my excitement, I now have 4 surface mounted points motor and another decoder working very well, shortest and heaviest wires possible seems to do the trick!!

The first photo is for the 3 solenoid motors. The second is the 4 surface mounted motors. The thin wires were cut back and rewired in 24/0.2.