Correct bogies for LNER coaches?

[Topcat2018]

I have a number of LNER (Thompson?) 61 ft teak coaches. Although some of these are the same coach (full third) they have different bogies. The one at the top of the photo is made by Triang and the bogies are very similar to those on a kit-built Silver Jubilee set that I have. (Ignore the brown colour, a previous owner repainted them, I don't know why). The bogies on this are a push fit with retaining claws.

The one in the middle of the photo is a full third R937 made by Hornby.

The one at the bottom is an LMS third made by Tri-ang.

The bogies on these latter two are fixed by hollow rivets and cannot be removed or changed easily.

To confuse the issue further I have seen Gresley 61 ft teak coaches with both types of bogie.

Why would an LNER coach have the same bogies as an LMS coach and which is the correct bogie for the LNER coach? An example of Triang/Hornby not being too worried about accuracy in the "olden days" perhaps? I suspect this is the case as the second LNER coach and the LMS coach have exactly the same roof, coach ends, chassis and bogies. Only the sides and the buffers are different.

[threelink]

Hi Topcat.

The bogies in the top photo are nearer correct. Triang were not at all concerned about historical accuracy, merely the creation of a pastiche of the real thing, so were happy to use their standard BR1 type bogie on pretty much everything (LNER teaks, Blue Pullman, GWR clerestory carriages to name but a few). For its age it's not a bad representation but hopelessly unsuitable for LNER stock.

The rivetted in bogies are quite easy to replace. My favoured approach is to grind off enough of the peened over rivet top inside the carriage to allow for the bogey's removal and then replace it with a Meccano bolt sleeved in a bit of biro ink tube and inserted from below, with suitable washers and a big blob of glue on the nut to prevent unwanted unscrewing of the nut in operation.

For all its generic appearance old Triang rolling stock stands up well to scrutiny at stand off scale when detailed, re-wheeled, repainted and fitted with 3 link or screw couplings. It lasts for ever and is cheap as chips. Personally, I love it.

[Topcat2018]

Thanks for your reply, you've confirmed what I suspected. Luckily I've acquired a lot of Gresley teak coaches with the more correct bogies over the years so some of them may be cannibalised to make my Thompson coaches more accurate and consistent with each other.

[threelink]

You're welcome. Enjoy the cannibalising. I am about to start on the replacement of the BR1 bogies on a pile of Triang/Hornby clerestories - I have been collecting suitable second hand bogies from train fairs and think that finally I have enough for the job.

[81F]

From your description of the top set of bogies, I think these are probably Hornby Gresly bogies as fityted to their Railroad LNER teak coaches. These have been available as spare from a number of eBay suppliers.

I bought several for some old Hornby Gresley sleeping cars which had the Mk1 bogies.

Once you have drilled the rivit out the Hornby bogies are a simple push fit.

Bachmann also make a Thompson bogie (available as spares) but I've not tried fitting these to a coach like yours but I know other bachmann bogies (LMS andf SR ones) can be made to fit Hornby LMS coaches and SR Luggage vans but require a nut and bolt and washers to get the correct height.

[threelink]

One further point on the bogie issue, Topcat. The brown colour mentioned in your original posting is, I believe, correct for LNER period livery. My understanding is that to harmonise with the varnished teak finish, the LNER painted all carriage ironwork, including the bogies, in brown rather than the black more commonly used.

[Topcat2018]

Thanks for that info. Do you also happen to know, is the framework underneath the chassis correct for LNER Thompson teak coaches or is it a BR one, as the chassis seems to be generic and used on different LNER and LMS coaches?

[threelink]

Without checking the model against a drawing of the prototype I'm afraid I do not know but, being Triang, I would expect a generic chassis to have been used. By using stock chassis and underframes and taking liberties with the dimensions of superstructures Triang were able to produce a wide variety of rolling stock and locos at reasonable cost - all of them inaccurate pastiches but eminently believable, very popuar in their day and even today capable of conversion to something closer to the prototype.

[LY shunter]

The LNER Gresley teak stock of 1977 is 10mm to short ,the real coach had a 60 ft long underframe and the composite should have 8 compartments not 7, (4 x 1st and 4 x 3rd).The coach was designed to fit onto the same chassis made for the great western coaches. The most obvious thing wrong with the underframe is that the battery boxes should be in the centre not 1 at each end

[threelink]

With reference my earlier post about bogie colours I have done some checking and I'm not sure that I am right about the bogies being painted brown. I have seen some references to them being black. The solebars and other ironwork were painted brown except on the carriage ends which were black but the question of bogie colour seems wide open pending an authoratative reply from someone who actually knows. Sorry for any confusion.

[Topcat2018]

Well as I said earlier the bogies on my Thompson teak coaches had been (quite crudely) painted brown by a previous owner, so they aren't definitive, but presumably they had been painted brown for some reason. I will watch with interest to see if more information turns up.

[81F]

Just to add the Chassis of the LNER Thompson Coaches is the Triang, BR Mk1 like the bogies. I know this because I replaced the sides of my one and only versions with Mk1 sides when I bought a rake of Bachmann Thompsons to replace it.

Comparing the two models the most obvious difference is that the true Thompsons had truss rods in the outside whereas the Mk1 has truss toads nearer the centre of the frame. Also batery boxes and other equipment look different.

As to the GWR underframes mentioned above, I think these are shared with the older now railroad Gresley coaches so does not apply to your coaches pictured above.

[naugytrax]

Carelessness in manufacturing - or maybe desperation in time of shortage - was not unknown even in the good old days of Meccano Ltd. I used to own a Hornby-Dublo ex-lNER coach in red and cream livery which had been fitted at the factory with bogies belonging to the LMS coaches of the post-war period. Because the bogie types were of different lengths it didn't run quite right, but in my days of using tinplate track on a wobbly hardboard baseboard my expectations of stability were lower!

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Basically, Tri-ang Railways, Tri-ang Hornby and Hornby Railways used a passenger coach bogie design based upon the BR standard BR 1 bogie, as used on BR MK1 coaching stock.

From 1962, Tri-ang Railways made a range of "scale length" BR MK1 coaches, starting with the Sleeping Car.

This range uses a one piece moulding for the ends, and the underframe, trussing, battery boxes, etc.

Except for the CKD kits, which had nut and bolt bogie fixings, the bogies were attached with eyelets (rivets).

All of the various BR MK1 coaches in this range use the same underframe and bogies.

Apart from the sleeping car, and the buffet car, the rest use the same roof as the CK, Composite coach.

Because the real BK full brakes were shorter than the other BR MK1 passenger stock, the Tri-ang Railways model (also some other makes, e.g. Lima) is too long. The side details having been stretched to fit the standard underframe.

When Tri-ang Railways released the Lord Of The Isles GWR Single, they tooled up clerestory roof coaches to go with the locomotive, based on a GWR design. These came out around the same time as the new Scale length BR MK1 coaches, so the BR parts were not available at the time.

Later, when Tri-ang needed some period style coaches to go with the Caledonian Single Locomotive, No. 123, they instead of tooling dedicated coaches they tooled up some sides based on CR coaches, and used the standard underframe, bogies, and Composite roof.

The LMS coach is a later version of the CR coaches, which were also available in GWR, and SR, liveries.

The LNER coaches were so different from the CR coaches, that Tri-ang Hornby tooled up sides for a composite and a brake 3rd coach based on the Thompson design. These too used the standard underframe, bogies, and composite roof.

When the new Pullman coaches were introduced, starting with "Lucille" in the 1970s, bogies based on the Pullman car design, which was basically a Gresley design, were used.

These were then available for use on later LNER coaches.

At some point, Hornby changed the bogie fixing from the eyelets (rivets) to a clip on system.

This cuts down on the assembly time, etc...

More recently, Hornby introduced some bogies based on pre nationalisation designs, to replace the BR bogies on some other, e.g. the later 1980s GWR, coaches.

[81F]

Sadly my original Lucille does not exist but I still have one of its bogies and a couple of complete Golden Arrow Pullmans in Blue Grey (which was a Blue/Grey version available alongside Lucille). However, the bogies are definitely not like the Gresley one fitted to the 1980s Gresley LNER coaches (version last appearing in the railroad range) - I will try to post a photo of my Golden Arrow bogie next to a Gresley coach later.

The Pullman ones have a longer wheel base than the Mk 1 and the Gresley which I discovered when I tried fitting the Gresley bogie to one of my Railroad Pullmans and found that the coach so fitted coupled so closely that the bodies fouled.

Indeed the 1980s Gresley's were first introduced with the standard clip on Mk1 bogies as were the Collett 57' coaches introduced in the same year. It was not until later that the Gresley bogies were introduced. Indeed I my LNER teak sleeping cars had these Mk1 bogies until I swapped them for spme Railroad Gresley bogies.

Interestingly the more authentic GWR bogies later fitted to Collett 57' have offset pivots to make up for the shorter wheelbase. This was not necessary wuith the gresley bogies as they had the same wheelbase as the MK1.

[Going Spare]

The X863 bogie used on non-super-detail Pullman cars now in the Railroad series is basically the same as the non-powered bogie on the traditional Hornby class 101 DMU (R157 etc.).