Hornby select point control

[DEWINNES]

I have recently had a layout made with DCC decoders to operate the points. When I programme the 2 sets of points one set as 61 and one set as 65 it appears they dont work correctly and they only intermittently work if at all. I have tried re programming

 

and swirtch one set off when I programme the other set. I have checked the points and also cleaned them . Can anyone help

[Fishmanoz]

Hi DEWINNES, a little more information might help us solve your problem. For a start, if you could answers these questions.

- you say they work intermittently. Is it some of them work some of the time, all of them work some of the time, or only some

 

work all of the time?

- when you address and attempt to throw a point but fail, does the point motor attempt to throw it, or is it just dead?

- have you tried to throw each point separately using the accessory supply on your controller? Does each work

 

reliably this way.

The aim of my questions is to try to find out if you have a decoder addressing issue or if it is an electro/mechanical problem with some of your points.

[Gregd99]

the info is indeed a bit scanty.

 

be aware that there is a cdu in the decoder. this means that you cannot throw points while it is recharging.

 

I do not have an 8247 but recall someone saying that you should allow 2 seconds between operations.

 

If

 

you are attempting to throw points more rapidly then this could be the reason.

[DEWINNES]

Thanks for your reply, All my decoders are wired in already so not sure how to fire each one on its own. I had someone do them for me. I have managed to get each one to fire but once I have done this once they don't fire again so I then have to reset them.

 

I was wondering if a total reset would help. I am a novice to this so apologies foe the lack of info. All the trains programme fine. I have checked all wires to decoders and they are also fine. I was wondering if this decoder has a problem when operating a

 

large number of points i have set them 61-64 and 65-68. I have 2 on off switches so I can switch each set off to programme each set. This is a good learning curve.

Regards David

[Gregd99]

if each point motor has operated once at the desired address then this means that the decoder has been programmed correctly.

 

my question was asking when you operate point 61 (say) do you leave a 1-2 second gap in time before you operate another

 

point on the same decoder (say 62). Without the gap it is likely that the point will not operate.

[DEWINNES]

I leave a gap of 2-3 seconds but it just resets the select rather than move the point so i have to keep re-programming it. They have all worked at some point but they don't seem to have enough power to move. I have 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 set on the track.

 

This is quite frustrating and I can't believe they are as weak as this.Not sure what I can do next. I take it if a train runs on the track there should be enough power for the points.

 

[DaveAus]

Looking for simple answers I assume the digital power clip that provides the power from the track to the decoder is making good contact ??

[St1ngr4y]

" I was wondering if this decoder has a problem when operating a large number of points i have set them 61-64 and 65-68. "

 

David, what do you mean by a "large number of points"? If these are 8247 decoders then each of the 4 ports on each decoder

 

should operate one point (or maybe two at the most in the case of, for example, a crossover).

 

Ray

[Mike_G]

hi

i have these decoders and have no problems

just a point of interest you say that you reprogramed them

how did you do this, the decoder should be programed by connecting it direct to the

select,elite programing track, and then wireing it

 

into the layout

the first will then be devise 1 and take the first 4 numbers, in my case 1,2,3,4

the second will then take devise number 2 and automaticly take the next 4 numbers

you're not suposed to program them connected to the layout( on the main)

 

 

i have 4 of these fitted and some of them fire up to 3 points on one outlet,in fact the decoder sends the fire command twice in quick sucsession each time, the only mod i made in the setup was to increace the recarge time from 0.7 to 1.5

if you try

 

reprograming them on the main connecte to the track outlet it will never work correct, it has to be done 1 at a time connected to th programing outlet

tyhis approch and see what happens then

 

rgds

mike

[Flashbang]

DEWINNES said:

I leave a gap of 2-3 seconds but it just resets the select rather than move the point so i have to keep re-programming it. They have all worked at some point but they don't seem to have enough power to move. I have 61 62 63

64 65 66 67 68 set on the track. This is quite frustrating and I can't believe they are as weak as this.Not sure what I can do next. I take it if a train runs on the track there should be enough power for the points.

Hi
Technically yes but

in practice it will depend on the number of locos running or that are stationary with their sounds or lights turned on. Especially if you're using the Selects 1.0Amp power unit.

Trail removing all locos and then test the points. If all is correct you

need to consider obtaining the larger 4.0Amp power unit to power the Select Hornby part No P9300 https://www.hornby.com/shop/digital/p9300-digital-15v-4-amp-transformer/
If the points still don't switch correctly after you have taken all locos off the rails

and the decoders power/data connections are from the rails, consider installing a pair of wires (a DCC bus) to feed all the decoders inputs rather than from the rails. The two wires connecting into the Selects 'Track' terminals then linking in/out of each

decoder and ending at the last decoder.

[Fishmanoz]

Hi DEWINNES, just concerning Mike_G's comments, what he says is perfectly correct but relates to the an Elite controller, not the Select. The Elite has a separate programming output that you use to program all locos and accessories. With the Select, there

 

is no separate output and you program by having only the device you want to program connected to the track at the time. It's pretty easy to tell which people are talking about because by default, the Select starts its accessory addressing at 61 whereas the

 

Elite starts at 1.

The fact that everything works once makes it difficult to isolate your problem. Flashbang may well be right concerning the available power because the 1Amp supply with the Select can run out of power quite quickly depending on how many

 

things you are trying to do at once, and the 4Amp supply is a good investment.

However, lets have another go at trying to find the problem for you. When you are fault finding, the standard approach is to try to isolate the problem to being within a small

 

part of the system. In this case, you can start to do this by using Flashbang's suggestion by first removing all your locos. They can't be interfering in the signals to the accessory decoders but they can be drawing power, so take them off. Next, it would

 

be good if you could disconnect one of the accessory decoders so you can concentrate on the other. I know you said they have been all wired in for you by a friend but you should still be able to remove the track input to one of them, either where it connects

 

to the decoder or where it comes from the track. If you can do that, it will then let you try to throw the points both ways on the ones connected to the other controller. Do these points now work both ways? If they do, now disconnect this decoder from track,

 

reconnect the other and see if these works.

Now one final thing that occurs to me as I write, and you might check this before isolating each decoder as I've suggested above. There are 3 connections from the decoder to each point, being positive, negative

 

and common. You need to check that these are correct and particularly that decoder common is wired to point motor common. This can be tricky as the Hornby colour coding for these wires is not what some expect. The coding is included with the leaflets that

 

come with either point motor or decoder or both (I have it but not to hand as I'm writing this). And why is this important? If the common is swapped with one of the others, the points will work in one direction but not the other. And it could well be that

 

when you try to throw the other, it overloads and resets the Select. Does this sound familiar? It could well be your problem. And if your friend was confused about the col

[Fishmanoz]

Oops, just accidentally touché Post Reply. Lt me finish. If your friend was confused about the colour coding, he may well have wired all of them incorrectly, rather than have accidentally wired one wrong.

I'll post this then see if I can easily find

 

the colour codes for you.

[Fishmanoz]

Having checked it out, and apart from the Hornby documentation being less than comprehensive and not specifically covering DCC operation of the point motors, the red and green wires are positive and negative (doesn't say which but it also doesn't matter,

 

as long as you are consistent or you'll never know which way a point is going to throw) and, the important one, the common is black.

Each output from the decoder is clearly labelled positive, common, negative, with the common in the middle. So check that

 

the black wire from the point motors goes to the middle connection of the decoder output. If black goes to either side and red or green to the middle, this is your problem and you need to move black to the middle to fix it.

[DEWINNES]

Thanks for reply, I have now obtained a 4amp supply but this has made no difference. It appears that the final suggestion could be the answer. If I isolate each decoder the same happens I am able to switch each set on and off. I take it the decoders are

 

relatively easy to check if wired correctly. Both my decoders are underneath the board. Just saw you latest reply so I will be checking this over the weekend. I do hope it works my son is getting a bit impatient and I am no expert.

[Fishmanoz]

Pretty easy to tell how they are wired if you can get under the board. The decoders will be mounted on 2 screw heads. You can get them off by sliding sideways in the direction they will move, then they will come away. The wiring is very obvious if you

 

now turn them over as all 3 connectors for each port are visible and you can easily tell if black is going to the middle one. If you can't get them off the board, you will still be able to tell by removing the little covers on each long side, after which you

 

can see the top of the 3 connections for each port and again the position of the black will be obvious and should be in the middle.

Good luck and I hope this is it, otherwise you have me stumped too.

[DEWINNES]

I,m stumped all black wires are in the middle. When I tried it I get 67 68 to work 63 and 64 to work the others just make a weak noice and reset the rest. I take it it doesn't matter which point motors go into the positions 1 2 3 and 4 on the box. I will

 

just keep trying to work it out it appears ports 3 and 4 work but 1 and 2 dont.

 

 

[Fishmanoz]

Hi DEWINNES, don't despair, we are actually getting somewhere here even if we haven't found the cause. We now know you have enough power for everything, that the DCC addresses are correctly programmed, the wiring appears to be correct and the point motors

 

are working. At least I think so from what you've said. Only connections 3 and 4 working is a bit of a puzzle but let's put that aside just for now.

That seems to leave only the points themselves and the physical connection to the motor. Which point motor

 

are you using, surface mount or other? And are you sure all worked or could it be that only 4 of the 8 are working from what you've said above? Now it is well known that these things need everything to be dead flat, the motor at the same height as the point

 

and the mounting screws done up not too tight or they tend to bind and not work. Point by point, take a look at these and see if you can see anything that affects operation. If for example, the point is slightly raised from the board for some reason, you will

 

also have to raise the motor By putting a piece of card under it. Make sure the mounting of the motor is exactly where it should be and try loosening the mounting screws a quarter turn.

Any improvement?

[DEWINNES]

I use the hornby point motors 8243 . Do the motors get the power from the red green and brown wires or from the track. I will check the point motors again but I have adjusted numerous times I wasn't sure how sensitive they are. The track is very level.

 

Thanks for the great advice so far. If one point fails will this keep resetting the others. Is it possible to test the select controller incase that is the cause.

[Fishmanoz]

That's the surface mount motor you are using. It is powered by the red, green and black wires connecting to the decoder, which is as you've described, definitely not from the track.

From what you've said, I don't think the Select is faulty, it seems

 

to be sending instructions correctly to the decoders, and the decoders then responding correctly to the point motors. My logic, and I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, is that, when the motors fire but the point binds and doesn't throw, it causes sufficient

 

current draw to make the system think there is a fault, causing it to reset.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, other then my suggested need to make sure the physical arrangement is right, then please let us know.

DEWINNES, you can test my theory

 

but you'll have to get back under the board and swap 2 motor connections to the decoder. Try disconnecting one of the working 3 or 4 port motors and one of the not working 1 or 2 port motors and swap them over. Swap all 3 wires and put them back as they were

 

but in the opposite port. Try throwing the points. Is it still the same point not working or is it the different point now connected to the 1/2 port that doesn't work?

Now that makes me think of one further possibility, although I'm not certain if this

 

is significant. Before doing as I've suggested above, take a look at the wiring connections to one of the decoders. Looking at it from above (under in your case from under the board), and looking from left to right, do the wire connections appear all either

 

red/black/green (or green/black/red) as you look along each side, or are they red/black/green on one side and green/black/red on the other? If they are the same, then try swapping the red and green wire connections to either port 1 or port 2 and see if that

 

point now works. Any luck?

If that was the case and the swap made the point work, now swap red and green on the other 3 ports 1 and 2 and I think your problem will be solved. If they were different when you originally looked at them, then it's back to

 

checking the physical mounting to make sure that is right.

Why might it be a problem if they were originally all the same? Well, if you look at either side, not from the top, then from left to right, each side will show + C - as the designations as you

 

look along. That means when you look from the top, one side will appear + C - and the other - C +. Does this explain where I'm coming from?

Let me know?

[DEWINNES]

Fishmanoz said:

That's the surface mount motor you are using. It is powered by the red, green and black wires connecting to the decoder, which is as you've described, definitely not from the track.
From what you've said, I don't think

the Select is faulty, it seems to be sending instructions correctly to the decoders, and the decoders then responding correctly to the point motors. My logic, and I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, is that, when the motors fire but the point binds and doesn't

throw, it causes sufficient current draw to make the system think there is a fault, causing it to reset.
If anyone has any thoughts on this, other then my suggested need to make sure the physical arrangement is right, then please let us know.
DEWINNES,

you can test my theory but you'll have to get back under the board and swap 2 motor connections to the decoder. Try disconnecting one of the working 3 or 4 port motors and one of the not working 1 or 2 port motors and swap them over. Swap all 3 wires and put

them back as they were but in the opposite port. Try throwing the points. Is it still the same point not working or is it the different point now connected to the 1/2 port that doesn't work?
Now that makes me think of one further possibility, although I'm

not certain if this is significant. Before doing as I've suggested above, take a look at the wiring connections to one of the decoders. Looking at it from above (under in your case from under the board), and looking from left to right, do the wire connections

appear all either red/black/green (or green/black/red) as you look along each side, or are they red/black/green on one side and green/black/red on the other? If they are the same, then try swapping the red and green wire connections to either port 1 or port

2 and see if that point now works. Any luck?
If that was the case and the swap made the point work, now swap red and green on the other 3 ports 1 and 2 and I think your problem will be solved. If they were different when you originally looked at them,

then it's back to checking the physical mounting to make sure that is right.
Why might it be a problem if they were originally all the same? Well, if you look at either side, not from the top, then from left to right, each side will show + C - as the designations

as you look along. That means when you look from the top, one side will appear + C - and the other - C +. Does this explain where I'm coming from?
Let me know?

[DEWINNES]

Just one more question each of my point decoders has 2 single points and 2 paired points running off them 6 in total I take it this should be ok.

[Flashbang]

Hi

Yes, that's fine.

[DEWINNES]

I moved one of the working points wires to the other port on the decoder and they worked fine. It just appears to be the 1 and 2 sides of the decoder. I swapped the green and red wires on the opposite sides but this made no difference. I am totally stumped

 

now. It appears only one side of each decoder works on 2 ports. Thanks for your advice I'm certainly learning something. I don't think I can do much more to get them to work.

 

[Fishmanoz]

So it seems conclusive that the decoders are faulty then with only one side functional. As far as I can tell, this is the only possibility left for you. We seem to have eliminated everything else. I would be sending them back for replacement or repair

 

under warranty.

[DEWINNES]

Just to say thanks for all your advice I changed both decoders and now all the points work fine its been a learning curve but got there in the end and learnt something on the way thanks to all involved

David DEWINNES