Gregd99

I am just coming to the end of a contract and day-dreaming about spending some time renovating my layout. I have an Elite with a dead transformer and was looking at spares. They are hard to come by but do seem to be available. However, I note that everyone, including Hornby is showing the Elite out of stock. Is this indicating that it is end-of-life or is it still going strong? Any info appreciated. Regards Greg

Robbie, Just popping by again. My absence due to 6 years of study which recently completed. I am hopeful that I can start to put some time back into my layout. Let's see how I go with that. Did the location detectors ever make an appearance? I hope all is well. Is there any major news in the forum or the product range? Regards

Hi all, After a very long absence, I was just passing by the forum and thought I would ask.... did location detection ever make it into reality?

I have an incline that rises about 8cm (3.1") over a run of about 1.5m (4.5'). 8cm is sufficient for me to run trains under and over. if you are looking for a rise of 4-5 inches then you will be looking at 6' or more I would think.

MetmanUK said: PJ_model_trains said: Well put MetmanUK. It is good to share ideas because by doing so other ideas come from them. The main facts are, although not in the first LD to come out, the main point here is data is being sent back from the sensor that RM 'could' use to further enhance the software. To be discussing these matters now just shows the interest in the system, ad excitement as to what it can do in the future. In another thread I made the case for a programmer's API. One of my assertions was that Hornby cannot have ALL of the best ideas, especially as they probably have/use a very small development team. So, if their software developers are good at their jobs, they will appreciate all feedback (can't think of a better word at present) as it will help them to confirm/amend/improve their plans for RM and LD. PJ and Hornby are not the only ones who can have (or initiate) eureka moments! Personally, I think an API and scripting capability in a language like python would be GREAT. I also think that this is probably getting out of the RM target market. have a look at JMRI if you are interested in complete flexibility and customization.... but do be prepared to invest time to get something going.

Fishmanoz said: Normal is as normal does. Or to paraphrase, only you and I are normal in this world, and I have a question mark about you. Have you misquoted Einstein? "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Love it....

Fishmanoz said: We've already said the clever part is how you use the detection data I wasn't aware of that. Are you able to provide the link? That would indeed be novel.... as there has been much scientific and industrial research on train control over many years.

per my previous.... I can only imagine that the novelty for which a patent is sought is to do with the detection mechanism. That IP will be interesting at some stage to the engineering types. What is more interesting to most is what RM will do with the detected events. - will auto-operation be feasible (ie with block allocation and routes programmed)? Don't think so. - will specific operations in response to a detection event be possible (eg change signals/points..) - clearly yes. - will something else be feasible? Would sharing this sort of info disclose patentable IP?

HornbyRailMasterSupport said: We have been watching this thread with interest and the continued speculation regarding the up-coming Loco Detection System. We are unable to give you specific details about how the system will work as the patenting process is still on-going however, the information that is in the public domain from previous postings on this forum, magazine articles and indeed the settings and information available within the RailMaster program should already give you an idea that this will be a sophisticated and useful system, giving a new level of control over the running of trains and switching of points and signals on your layouts. Please wait until the system is made available and then all your detailed questions will be answered. A separate PDF guide will be included with the system and Loco Detection will remain a standard feature within the RailMaster software, i.e. you will only have to purchase the hardware. HornbyRailMasterSupport, I think that is perhaps a little disingenuous. The focus of the discussion is very much about what you can do with the system rather than how it works. Unless you have come up with something quite extraordinary then surely all the detector does is communicate to the RM sw on the PC that tag X has passed over the detector and the novelty is in the way in which this detection occurs. I think what people mainly interested is what they can do with an RM system with detectors equipped. Is it just reacting to detection events or something more sophisticated? Would some communication in this area put a patent at risk?

As you say 'Depending on your interests the sort of programming above is very interesting (or complicated or boring because you want to drive your own trains' this must be a concern for Hornby, some will not want it, some will and will succeed but, the rest will either take time and get there or through it out completely. I would imagine from where I am now, on the starting grid, that the system can very easily be made to complicated, or more complicated than necessary. I think that Hornby will stick with relatively straightforward capabilities. They market the system as being easy to use. The other way of saying “easy to use” is “has limitations”. You can’t be all things to all people. First consider the maximum length of train and track and use that, plus a bit more as my yard stick for my shortest block length. If the odd train is to have a very long rake make it less than two blocks but treat it as a special situation. Personally, I think that a block size should be around 1.5x the max train length. My trains will normally take 2-3 blocks to stop. Having a block around the length of a train is fiddly. My next set of sensors would be at a distance before the main sensors, I am calling these my level two sensors. These are not programmed to points or signals but just speed and sound adjusters. You need to think about signals…. Do you want to manually control the signals and have the train react to them or vice-versa. I would suggest that setting the signals by hand and then having the train slow down or speed up might be interesting. PJ it is all fun and hope you enjoy figuring out what you want to do!

St1ngr4y said: I've been trying to imagine how a layout with LD would be operated. I have no inside information but I doubt that RM+LD will allow fully automated operation at this stage. The capabilities seem to be focused on "when a loco arrives at point x do something". This gives a lot of fun options with play sounds and slowing down in sidings etc. When you look at auto operation then you need to know the location of every train with respect to each other and to ensure that blocks are allocated/de-allocated as required with trains being stopped and started as required if signals are set against them and/or blocks are available. a sequence might go... 1. train 1 is driving from block n to block n+2 2. if block n+2 is occupied then set signal in block n+2 to red and block n+1 (and possibly n depending on block size and train speed) to yellow 3. as train enters yellow signalled blocks then set speed of train 1 to such that it will stop within the yellow blocks. 4. when block n+2 becomes free then set signals in blocks n-n+2 to green 5. now signals are green set train 1 speed to the speed determined by signals ahead (n+2, n+3...) Depending on your interests the sort of programming above is very interesting (or complicated or boring because you want to drive your own trains) I think, at least initially, RM will stay away form the complexity of full auto-running. My layout, when I have time, runs automatically using JMRI. This was a really interesting project in which I learned an enormous amount about signalling and blocks and... this is code for saying it took a long time to get it right:-)

Fishmanoz said: In the first instance, we know logically that when a tag passes over a sensor, the sensor tells the receiver and the receiver tells RM that tag No? Has been detected. Does it do anything else? It's easy to see that it does - instructions 5, 6 and 7 relate to direction, so clearly the sensor can tell which direction the tag was traveling and tell this to RM via the receiver. Becoming clearer? I think that we will find that all the detector tells RM is that loco id X has been detected by detector Y. RM knows where you have position detector Y on the layout from the track schematic. RM can also match the id X to a specific loco and the associated speed and direction. From my experience location detectors are quite "dumb" devices. their job is to reliably detect (which can be hard) but everything else is up to the host software on your pc et al. if the above is correct then an interesting question is raised if we fit id rags to wagons. RM will not know anything about their speed or direction.

St1ngr4y said: RM knows already what speed that loco should be doing. RayThis is not actually the case.... RM know what speed it has told the loco to run at. The actual loco speed will be somewhere in the range from the "commanded speed" to the "previous commanded speed" as the loco speeds up or slows down. RM can estimate where the loco will be in that range. Often this will be irrelevant but imagine the case where you say:- 1. set loco to max speed 2. stop loco 3. if locoSpeed = 0 do something Does RM use the estimated speed or the "commanded speed" in step 3?

That's a very impressive layout.... mine has tools and electronics stacked on parts of it:-(

Phul007 said: On my Calculation I will need 29 detectors as it is a 3 loop figure eight that intersects each other also I have a 6 track yard so each one would need a detector to stop.With the caveat that everyone's layout is different and people can use detectors in all sorts of different ways...... One way of using detectors is to determine which block is allocated to which train. I am not sure if RM will let us do that but that is what I do with JMRI. With block allocation implemented all sorts of fun things with signaling and/or auto-running are possible! Typically for location sensors (as opposed to block sensors) you will have a sensor at the entry and exit of each block. A block needs to be long enough to hold your largest train with something to spare... so if you trains are one metre long (say) then a block size of 1.5-2m is a reasonable size. Note that to stop a train in a 2m block you will have needed to set the correct signal in the previous block to slow the train down. This braking becomes the limiting factor.... as in real railways. In my 20m layout I use 6 sensors. Did cheat and put sensors at the throat of points so a single sensor actually detects entry into to either of the two blocks after the points. Without this trick I might have had 10ish sensors. Using these rules of thumb 29 sensors would need a layout of around 60m/200 feet! Don't forget that you can use a sensor at the entry to a siding to detect the loco (and play a sound) and then to detect the last carriage (and stop the train). It is all fun and I found I learned heaps about signaling.