Buying track - who's?

[81F]

Fishmanoz said:

AC, yes, links to be cut - download the point leaflet and it will tell you. The link is only on the 245mm point, not the shorter ones I think. You have to cut the rails on the shorter.

81F, if you isolate the frog

back to half way down the switch rails (where that link is or by cutting the rail), then surely shorting should not be a problem?

Also, take a look at http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm for more info on how they work.

I have to

admit I had have already laid my electrofrog points in a very inaccessible place so this is no longer an option. However, resetting the back to back is straight forward enough. Also I do not get as many derailments!

[Augustus Caesar]

Well I've had a look at the links given above (or more accurately - the sites!) and taken in the comments from all comers and one thing rather 'worries' me a little. I say a little because that is all it is... it involves the probable cutting of rails.

 

I don't really want to be doing that and making costly mistakes and was rather hoping that simple cutting of the two wires under the EF points would suffice.

 

So, having discovered that little scenario, would any of you just recommend the insulfrog points

 

from P*co? I am aware of the possible stalling etc but if that is going to be a minor issue then it will surely be the same as worrying about shorts being made when the wheels of a loco contact two rails on the EF points? So is it not just a case of swings

 

and roundabouts? I know each of you has your own personal preferences and this is not to be decried or anything remotely like that. I am trying to figure out the simplest, least costly, effortless and more importantly, most effective track system overall where

 

I don't have to keep cutting things up. That doesn't sound over positive I know but I hope you know what I mean.

 

If I have to use EF points and cut the rails to have a sure fire way of getting maximum performance for my efforts then I will look for

 

that path. I think some of my concerns stem from having already gotten some new Hornby track from a couple of sets over the last couple of years. I am possibly going to have to write it off as Graskie says different manufacturer profiles don't easily allow

 

mixing of track as they are not easy to join up.

 

Having said all that the track I have is mostly the curves as they are from three sets and one already knows not much straight track is supplied here, hence the reason for looking at P*co flexi code 100

 

with the wooden sleepers. My other track is over 30 years old and has starting discolouring and even shows signs of rust on the sides. There’s loads of it and it will probably be got rid of.

 

If the EF points are not going to cause a huge amount of distress

 

at having to cut the rails (possibly just concerned I mess that up!!!) then maybe I will go that route but need a tiny bit more convincing. I will be using the Elite and a laptop to control most things and using surface mounted point motors initially though

 

if a better option for the EF points is noted then I will use the motors mentioned above somewhere else.

 

Once again guys thanks for your input which is valued immensely!

[Augustus Caesar]

Woah.... forgot to mention... I have two points and accessory decoders to think about as well if they don't work with P*co points or motors... darned complications in life... why do we bother? 'Cause it's fun... :-)

[Fishmanoz]

If you use the 245mm point, which is similar to Hornby express points, but definitely not the same, it has the wire links so definitely no track cutting required with this one, only the two shorter types.

 

I've given you links above to 2 other motor

 

manufacture info, and the original of these type is the tortoise, so you might check them as well.

 

Finally, I have not seen problems reported on incompatibility of track profiles on these 2 manufacturers, and I have not experienced any.

 

Yes

 

it gets confusing, but keep reading and trying and you will soon get your head around it.

[walkingthedog]

There is no incompatibility with the two makes of track. I use both and have no trouble at all, they work perfectly well together.

[Fishmanoz]

Poliss just posted a link to a site I'd lost in the General forum under Better Points for DCC. It is http://www.proto87.com/turnout-wiring-for-DCC.html and go to diagram 4. Thanks poliss, most helpful.

[Augustus Caesar]

Ah, a little more clarity and my brain begins to digest... OK, I think I missed something earlier with regard the 245mm points and the non cutting of track with that one. Better still is the knowledge of little or no problems re mixing Hornby and P*co

 

code 100 streamline track. Cheers all round to all who posted that for me!

 

I've checked those links re the motors Fishmanoz and will keep them handy for future reference and further digestion.

 

I've read the thread by Graskie about 'Better points

 

for DCC' and also had a good look at the site you offer up in your last post above (thanks go to Poliss too who originally gave that link). This is very informative and a link I shall keep in my favs.

 

So, I am much clearer in my mind now as to what

 

should be done and where I need to go to have a chance of a very good working and smooth running layout... providing I do it all correctly!

 

Thanks so much guys... I offer up to you all a virtual drink of your choice in my virtual bar! Enjoy... :-)

 

I'm

 

sure I'll be back later with more questions... I can hear the groans already!!! lol

[Fishmanoz]

Download the leaflets as I suggested AC - look for SL88,89. The wire links are clearly visible on the plan for this one, and not there on the smaller ones.

[Fishmanoz]

That's SL-88,89

[Flashbang]

Hi

I posted this on another forum recently..

As Hornby don't seem to mind discussion occurring around Electrofrog points then here is what I posted....

 

You don't have to do any conversion work at all to an Electrofrog point.

An electrofrog

 

point will work correctly straight from the box!

Though you do have to add the two IRJs to the Vee rails.

 

But by making two other conversions the points power routing (and data too for DCC) reliability is vastly improved.

 

Without modification

 

the moving point blades will switch the power correctly to the frog. But you rely then on the point blades making 100% contact onto their stock rails.

 

Conversion 1. Frog polarity switching independent of the point blades.

For improved power switching

 

many will opt for point motor operated change over switch, such as a PL13 fitted to a PL10 or Hornby R8014 motor, S**p PM1, T**toise or C*b*lt motor.

If used, a surface mounted point motor cannot be used to switch the frog polarity if separate frog switching

 

is wished for. As it has no means of directly attaching the change-over switch needed. Some surface mounting motor users will fit a small micro switch onto the other side of the point from the motor and then the micro switches arm is worked by the points moving

 

tie bar (Stretcher bar) pressing the micro switches lever in on one direction and releasing it in the other direction. You can also use a 12 volt latching relay connected to the two motor coils feeds. So as one motor coils pulse of power latches the relay

 

and the other coils pulse releases it, but a dc supply is need to operate the point motor coils and the relay - either from a CDU or a suitable dc power source.

 

Then finally the full conversion..... This the full modification of removing the two factory

 

fitted small link wires under the points closure rails or where no gaps are provided then carefully cutting through the two closure rails between two sleepers and the cut being made between the pivot and the frog, then bonding each stock rail to its adjacent

 

closure rail on the pivot side of the gap, but you must have forg polarity switching in use to carry out this modification.

[Fishmanoz]

Hey Flashbang, who said you need nice pictures to describe such intricacies when a thousand words will do it just as well.

 

And my apologies, I exaggerate and your words do describe it well.

[Flashbang]

Fishmanoz said:

Hey Flashbang, who said you need nice pictures to describe such intricacies when a thousand words will do it just as well.

And my apologies, I exaggerate and your words do describe it well.

I hope my

words are not so long and boring that some have gone to sleep reading them!
They are meant to be helpful to those who don't quite understand the idea behind what is needed. Having done far more conversions than many could swing a track pin at! :-)

[Augustus Caesar]

Today, I picked up two SL E95 points ready for a quick test with some extra track to see what is required each step of the way. The seller didn't have in stock the larger SL -88,89 points so I made an executive decision to try out the ones I managed to

 

find. At this stage it doesn't matter which ones I use.

 

I have all the diagrams you suggest Fishmanoz from the P*co site in .pdf format but they don't show any wiring underneath so are there other diagrams available that I have missed? These only show

 

full page pictures of each point.

 

Flashbang... all points duly noted so thanks for those. I will copy and paste the comments from each post that is relevant and read them through so they 'tell a story' and I will attempt the impossible and try and get

 

the things working first time. If I fail and anyone wants to come to the Toon area and show me physically what needs doing I will lay on a cuppa and biscuits! :-)

 

I may be just reading too much into this and making it harder than it actually is but

 

every person and modeller has their own preferential way of doing things. Anyway... I will let you know as soon as I can get around to testing these (busy few days coming up - conveniently) as long as what I have to say isn't too embarrassing!! :-)

 

Thanks

 

guys...

[Rog RJ]

There's an explanation of the modification of electrofrog points here http://www.freewebs.com/platelayer/tipsandwiringpage2.htm

[Fishmanoz]

AC, take another look at the 88,89 after looking at the first picture in Rog's link and you should now be able to see it. It's definitely there.

[Augustus Caesar]

Excellent!!! It does seem I was reading too much into things. I've had another good look at these posts and links and esp. the link Rog gives above (thanks Rog).

 

From that I now fully understand where I have been confusing myself. It was in the

 

cutting of the rails. Explanations in the latter link tell me it was older points from P*co that needed the rails cut and I maybe misread the fact that they do not need cutting in newer points.

 

Anyway... I now must invest in two point motors to get

 

this running as intended. So, to clarify...

 

I have the two points already but require a pair of point motors and two accessory switches. Obviously I need more if I add to the quantity of points used later on. The power is fed to the motor from the system

 

bus wires and I also need to isolate the frog ends with plastic IRJ’s. From that I take it I do not isolate either stock rail on the outer sides? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

So, from this I take it surface mounted Hornby point motors are not sufficient

 

for this kind of wiring or switching. Again, correct me if I am wrong because if they CAN be used that’s all the better for me and less drilling of my boards etc. How then do I get the Hornby accessory decoder to do the switching of the point from the Elite

 

for P*co based motors? How do I connect that up?

 

Forgive my extensive use of questions guys but getting this right first time is better in the long run.

 

From the diagrams I see a P*co PL-13 accessory switch is used and point motor (which model?).

 

I will need to read up on what these switches actually do as I have not come across them before.

 

So, with the extra bit of confidence and answers to my last couple of questions I should be ready to install and test.

 

As always, many, many thanks

 

guys!!

[Fishmanoz]

The PL-13 switch attaches to the middle of the tie bar and switches the frog for you. It means that the end of the tie bar is still available to attach a surface mount, so this arrangement will suffice.

 

Just remember though that, if you don't cut

 

the rails in the same place as where the links are on the 88 and 89, you do have the potential for shorts occurring if back to backs are wrong or you run older locos with wider wheels. That's all been covered above and should make more sense now. The problem

 

is the opposite polarities are very close together at frog and even a momentary short causes DCC to trip out, unlike DC.

[Augustus Caesar]

Great stuff Fishmanoz... I believe I have a handle on all this now and will go ahead with confidence thanks to all your own and everyone else's help with this thread. It took a little getting there but we did it.

 

I'll order the necessary parts and

 

will set things up in the next couple of weeks as times over the following week or so are restrictive with my business interests etc.

 

So once more... thanks to everyone!

[Fishmanoz]

Glad to be of use AC.

[Fishmanoz]

Glad to be of use AC.

[Flashbang]

Hi

Just to clarify.

The PL13 cannot be easily mounted to the points underside. It is designed to be a fitted to the bottom of a PL10 motor but can I understand also be fitted to a Hornby R8014 point motor (I haven't tried this)

 

If you need

 

to use a surface motor like the R8243 or PL11 then the only way a PL13 switch can be fitted to the point is to cut off its fixing lugs on each side and bond it to the points underside with a suitable glue - superglue. A Hornby track pin can be used to pass

 

down through the points tie bar hole into the PL13 hole to allow the PL13 to slide over with the points tie bar movement. Bond the pin on place with the tiniest spot of superglue but be very careful that no glue can get into the moving parts of the point.

 

Next...

 

Not all P*c* code 100 electrofrog points come with the factory fitted gaps in the two closure rails. The small Y point is one that doesn't and there may well be others too? So if you wanted to convert the small Y or any others found without the factory gaps

 

and link wires you will have to cut right through the two closure rails between two sleepers. I have found the best cutting tool is a jewellers piercing saw. This gives a very fine cut. A mini drill with a metal slitting disc is next easiest but leaves a larger

 

gap. I have found that a razor saw cannot be used as you cant get it in between the rails!

 

I have converted around 120 or more electrofrog points so far for myself, my club and some for friends many of which didn't have the gaps, so I have used both

 

the methods above to cut the gaps. Preferring now to use the jewellers saw.

[Augustus Caesar]

Interesting Flashbang... didn't realise obviously that P*co still do the points with no underside mods as per some of the newer ones. I'll keep that in mind when designing the layout in full (part is already under test).

 

What I may actually do is

 

not use the surface mounted ones after all and just stick with the PL-10 and PL-13 etc. I also take it that the wires from the Hornby Accessory Decoder R8247 are simply connected to the PL-10 in the normal way so the pulse throws the switch.

 

Hidden

 

motors when I think about it are probably better than seeing stuff trackside that normally in real life wouldn't be there! So thanks Flashbang... I'll pass the motors I have over to a friend who will need them when he gets around to building his layout. So

 

I've not lost too much in that respect. Feeling great about this stuff now and as stated will test it all very soon...