Planning a layout - DCC starting from scratch

[Fishmanoz]

Likes should be lights 3 above.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Solenoid point motors have 3 wires and connect to accessory decoders via the screw connectors on the decoder.

Decoders connect to the track or the DCC bus, which are in turn connected to the track output of the eLink.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Solenoid point motors have 3 wires and connect to accessory decoders via the screw connectors on the decoder.

Decoders connect to the track or the DCC bus, which are in turn connected to the track output of the eLink.

So

1 bus does it all... that's good cos' buses always come in twos!

On a serious note... what is code for decoders

I was wondering if there were two buses one for continuous current and one for pulsing current eg points.

Can two points be

wired in parallel for cross-overs, station sidings in and out etc?

Also can lights for point junctions we wired in parallel so point changes and lights change

[Fishmanoz]

One bus only. The pulsed output for points is produced by the accessory decoders from the signals it gets from the one bus.

 

Some decoders/point motors come with inbuilt switches for lights etc. take a look at TT300 and Cobalt for a start. Google

 

them. There are also many recent threads here and in RM forum on Cobalts.

[PJ_model_trains]

Thanks for confirming, one DCC Bus.

 

I spoke to our local train shop owner and he said to wire track and points separately but, I am aware, though he is a nice person and very helpful he is the first to admit he is not a digital man and certainly

 

not a computer person.

 

I also checked the points motor guidance sheet for point motor R8014 but these do not include guidance to digital set ups.

 

I therefore have a couple of questions please. I have the wire for the DCC Bus, red and blue (2

 

wires) The points motor has 3 wires, red green and black. Which do I add to the DCC Bus and do I need to run a third wire for the DCC Bus?

 

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ_model_trains said:

MetmanUK said:

One thing I should have mentioned - it caught me out in a big way - was underestimating the amount of customisation wiring needed for DCC points. This also required additional power drop cables.

If

I understand correctly, the dcc bus is two wires. The point motor has three. I appreciate two are for switching and one the return wire, this is simple with a switch for the points but, again if I understand correctly the RailMaster software controls the switching.

I am therefore unsure how to wire the three wires from the point motor to the two wires of the dcc bus?

I have checked the lambert website mentioned by a few in the forum, the wiring to a switch is clear but to the dcc bus I am not sure what to do.



Can anyone help please.

[RDS]

@PJ_model_trains

I have been reading through all the postings on your thread.

I am one of those who has been able to construct a full layout with 4 ovals, 24 sets of points and 11 separate sidings (in the centre) all with just one power connector

 

(on the outer oval) and points clips. Obviously though, it will do no harm to have an electrical bus.

With regard to the soldering though. It is probably over 45 years since I soldered my first electrical connection and I have NEVER used a separate flux.

 

Electrical connections in electronics situations are soldered using what is known as multicore solder, which means that the flux is contained within the solder and is not separate. The use of a separate flux is just going to make the technique more difficult

 

(and messy) for you.

A separate flux is normally used when soldering something like tin plate and would not be recommended at all for electrical connections where it is essential to get a good electrical contact.

I use 25W Antex iron as someone else

 

above mentioned.

[Fishmanoz]

PJ_model_trains said:

If I understand correctly, the dcc bus is two wires. The point motor has three. I appreciate two are for switching and one the return wire, this is simple with a switch for the points but, again if I understand correctly

the RailMaster software controls the switching. I am therefore unsure how to wire the three wires from the point motor to the two wires of the dcc bus?

I have checked the lambert website mentioned by a few in the forum, the wiring to a switch is clear

but to the dcc bus I am not sure what to do.

Can anyone help please.

You are forgetting about the accessory decoder. A point motor cannot be connected directly to the DCC signal, via the track, bus, or directly from the controller. If we

use the example of the R8247, it has 2 input connections to the DCC signal, and 4 lots of 3 output connections to control 4 point motors or other accessories such as lights, signals etc. Other arrangements have an accessory decoder with only one output to

control one point motor etc, either as a separate item or sometimes integrated with the accessory. Google TT300 and you'll see an example of what I mean.

[Fishmanoz]

It's actually exactly the same as a DCC loco. The motor in the loco is not connected directly to the track, it is connected to a loco decoder that is then connected to the track. The decoder contains the address that let's you select which loco you are

 

intending to control. Then you can control the loco by addressing it, just as there are other outputs that are designed to control directional lighting and other functions like smoke units or auto decoupling, if these are fitted.

 

Everything that you

 

want to control on a DCC system must have a decoder. All decoders have unique addresses that you set and which are then used to send signals only to that address. Take another look at Brian Lambert now and you will see that this is quite clear in all his content.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

PJ_model_trains said:

If I understand correctly, the dcc bus is two wires. The point motor has three. I appreciate two are for switching and one the return wire, this is simple with a switch for the points but, again

if I understand correctly the RailMaster software controls the switching. I am therefore unsure how to wire the three wires from the point motor to the two wires of the dcc bus?

I have checked the lambert website mentioned by a few in the forum, the

wiring to a switch is clear but to the dcc bus I am not sure what to do.

Can anyone help please.
You are forgetting about the accessory decoder. A point motor cannot be connected directly to the DCC signal, via the track, bus, or directly from the

controller. If we use the example of the R8247, it has 2 input connections to the DCC signal, and 4 lots of 3 output connections to control 4 point motors or other accessories such as lights, signals etc. Other arrangements have an accessory decoder with only

one output to control one point motor etc, either as a separate item or sometimes integrated with the accessory. Google TT300 and you'll see an example of what I mean.

Thank you for your patience, I have searched and searched the web and found

many comments like 'I am banging my head against a wall' so at least I am not only on my own understanding this. Like so many things once you know what to do and have done it once you will look back and say it was a doddle. I can't wait for that moment ;-)



I am looking at a diagram for the TT300 at
http://www.cravenmodels.com/TRAINTRONICSPOINTMOTORS.htm --- Fig. 4 wiring for DCC control.

The wires from the point motor are wired direct to the points in 3 locations. (via dropper wires)
There

are also 2 additional wires to the controller or booster which then links to the eLink.

The R8247 Point and Accessory Decoders can control up to 4 point motors
If I read correctly there is sufficient power from one port of the R8247 for 2 back to

back points for cross-overs and this can work fine although there could be a slight delay.

So each point motor connects by 3 wires to the points track and two additional wires go back to the Decoder R8247 max. 4 points

Am I reading this correctly?

What

if I have up to 20 points?

[Fishmanoz]

Take a look at http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?autocom=custom&page=TT300-Point-Motor and you see this arrangement with a decoder with every point. Yes, the 8247 will handle 4 points, or even 4 pairs of points. But you have a price comparison

 

here as well and it is not cheap.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Take a look at http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?autocom=custom&page=TT300-Point-Motor and you see this arrangement with a decoder with every point. Yes, the 8247 will handle 4 points, or even 4 pairs of points.

But you have a price comparison here as well and it is not cheap.

Firstly, to get a clear picture in my (retired) mind LOL.

Hornby points motor - has 3 wires and connects to the points/track, via dropper connections, then has 2 wires

going back to the R8247 decoder - max. 4 point controls in the R8247 if single point connections.

TT300 point motor - has two wires that connect to.... (points or dcc bus - which ?) but has decoder installed in the points motor for a little extra cost.

Thank

you for your time and help, it is really appreciated. I just want to make sure I get this right first time, then spend time playing and building scenery, lighting and the finishing items not taking track etc up to change later.

[Fishmanoz]

Still not correct. No point motor connects directly to the DCC bus, unless it has a decoder built into it like the TT300. Hornby 3 wire solenoid point motors can only be run DCC by connection to an accessory decoder like the 8247.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Still not correct. No point motor connects directly to the DCC bus, unless it has a decoder built into it like the TT300. Hornby 3 wire solenoid point motors can only be run DCC by connection to an accessory decoder like the

8247.

So if I go for the TT300 I just drop the wires and connect on to the DCC Bus?

The DCC wires connect to the eLink and the eLink via USB to the laptop.

Are the points then programmable through RailMaster.

I have checked

RailMaster / Elements / Point Settings / by right clicking the points control is has...
Controller A
Decoder port set number
Type..... I cannot see Traintronics or TT300 listed here? Will the TT300 point decoder work through the eLink and RailMaster

software?

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Still not correct. No point motor connects directly to the DCC bus, unless it has a decoder built into it like the TT300. Hornby 3 wire solenoid point motors can only be run DCC by connection to an accessory decoder like the

8247.

With all the emphasis on the DCC Bus and the dropper wires it appeared from what I was picking up that all dropper wires attach to the Bus wiring. Having tried to think through it logically I have now come to the following conclusion.

The

DCC Bus feed the continuous power for all locos on the whole layout. (Does it have any other use?)

The three wires from the point motor need to go through a decoder, R8247, which in turn is connected to the eLink and the eLink via USB to the laptop/computer.

In

the layout I am building I will have 22 points, with 2 cross overs linked that would be 20 decoder points, 5 of R8247. (This is for point motors only not lighting)

Having not seen the R8247 other than images online as you cannot buy them anywhere and

I understand it could be Christmas before Hornby have them and that I have not seen a diagram for wiring to them I am a little in the dark. I therefore have the following questions:

1 - am I 'on track' with what I have put above?
2 - I assume there

are 3 connection points for each of the 4 decoder points? Which match the 3 wires from the point motors.
3 - Do you get any wiring with each decoder? to link the decoder to the eLink? Or link multiple decoders together?
4 - Do you have to code them in

to RailMaster, eg. 1,2,3,4 for the first decoder and follow on numbers for additional ones?
5 - Can the decoders be easily fitted on the under side of the 9mm ply layout board?

I look forward to any replies provided to get me on track and keep me

on track.

It is frustrating waiting till the end of November for the Majestic set.

And waiting till Christmas for the decoders. Do you think they will be available before Christmas? Does Hornby shut down over Christmas or not have any deliveries

in that period?

[PJ_model_trains]

I found this which may help others (See also my message above)

 

Go to https://www.hornby.com/downloads/digital-instruction-manuals/

 

R8247 Point & Accessory Decoder - Hornby PDF

 

It says...

Fitting the Hornby Point/Accessory Decoder:

1.Connect

 

the wires from the point accessory motor to the first available input terminals on the decoder.

Then connect the wires from the point decoder to the track or ProgrammingTrack. Full wiring instructions are supplied with each Module.

 

Do you have a

 

PDF of... Full wiring instructions are supplied with each Module.

 

The above link is for connecting R8247's to The Hornby Select Digital Control, I am assuming the procedure is the same/similar for connecting with RailMaster? Does Hornby have up to date

 

instructions for connecting using the RailMaster?

[Fishmanoz]

I think the 8247 leaflet is in downloads too. Apart from the Select not having a program output, the instructions for all controller connections are the same. Connect to programming track to program and connect to track output/track/bus to run. With Select

 

you program on the track and first have to remove everything else so you only program what you intend to program.

 

For RM, isn't all of this covered in the RM Manual?

[Fishmanoz]

PJ_model_trains said:

With all the emphasis on the DCC Bus and the dropper wires it appeared from what I was picking up that all dropper wires attach to the Bus wiring. Having tried to think through it logically I have now come to the following

conclusion.

The DCC Bus feed the continuous power for all locos on the whole layout. (Does it have any other use?)

The three wires from the point motor need to go through a decoder, R8247, which in turn is connected to the eLink and the eLink

via USB to the laptop/computer.

In the layout I am building I will have 22 points, with 2 cross overs linked that would be 20 decoder points, 5 of R8247. (This is for point motors only not lighting)

Having not seen the R8247 other than images

online as you cannot buy them anywhere and I understand it could be Christmas before Hornby have them and that I have not seen a diagram for wiring to them I am a little in the dark. I therefore have the following questions:

1 - am I 'on track' with

what I have put above?
2 - I assume there are 3 connection points for each of the 4 decoder points? Which match the 3 wires from the point motors.
3 - Do you get any wiring with each decoder? to link the decoder to the eLink? Or link multiple decoders

together?
4 - Do you have to code them in to RailMaster, eg. 1,2,3,4 for the first decoder and follow on numbers for additional ones?
5 - Can the decoders be easily fitted on the under side of the 9mm ply layout board?

Because

they are all connected together, the eLink output, the track, the bus and any connected dropper wires are effectively the same thing and can be used interchangeably.

Now everything in your DCC system must be connected to this to run. That includes

locos and accessory decoders. However, first they must be connected to the programming track to be programmed, loco decoder or accessory decoder.

Now to answer your questions:

1. Pretty much but see my general info above.
2. Yes. Note they

are called decoder ports.
3. Yes. Note only to the track output. Point motors have their own wiring to connect to the 8247.
4. Yes. Program them on the programming track. Detail in Rm am manual which was placed on your desktop when you installed RM,

then updated to the latest when it went to v1.53.
5. Yes. Designed to mount this way with keyholes in the decoder which fit over screws put into the underside of your board.

How's the fog going? Starting to lift? Around here it is brushfire smoke

haze, and it isn't lifting.

[Fishmanoz]

That's RM Manual. And no edge in the fog joke intended. Happy to answer your questions and you seem to be getting there.

 

If you want to see how to program things, just pretend you have them on the programming track, open RM and the loco design

 

window, or accessory programming window and follow the instructions in the manual. The program will behave like it is doing the job. But of course if you try to read back to confirm, it ain't there.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

How's the fog going? Starting to lift? Around here it is brushfire smoke haze, and it isn't lifting.

Sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees as they say but often it is because you have been told something,

seen something or read something that makes you think in a different direction than you should be thinking.

I guess it is due to one of the most quoted myths of Digital Command Control (DCC) is that it is 'purely a two wire system' where two wires

connected to one location on the layout is all that is needed for full operation. Quoted if I may say by those who appear to know what they are talking/writing about! Not being aware of a DCC Bus until you start to build a layout and being baffled by the various

wire codes mentioned for the DCC Bus and focusing on the two wire system being all you need it is understandable you focus on how to fix to the two wires, points, signals the lot!

It wasn't until I stopped chasing answers online and started to visualise

the flow of events that the 'Fog started to lift'

Well back to it, the board is made and wider than initially planned, I got the full 4'. I have 90 electric couplers prepared in groups of 6 and 12 the 1.5mm2 wire looping all connectors together, tomorrow

the DCC Bus will be in and the connectors evenly situated around the board, I can start on track laying and 'soldering' another learning curve! I aim to do 36 track solder joints for for both wires so have a lot to do. Electric point clips fitted to all points

I have so far so I feel I am getting somewhere.

Don't worry about the fog... it was the Flying Scotsman and the bush fire was its fire glowing in the evening light.

Thanks again for your help.

[PJ_model_trains]

MetmanUK said:

Hi PJMT,
I'm just ahead of you on the learning curve having built some baseboards and laid a bit of track. The soldering iron recommended is the Antex 25w (get the one with the silicone lead). I also purchased the 0.5mm

bit as the one that comes with it is a bit too big (literally). I purchased water-based flux and lead-free solder. I've done little soldering and have found these tools make it quite easy.

Hi did you see the comments from RDS 19 October?

With

regard to the soldering though. It is probably over 45 years since I soldered my first electrical connection and I have NEVER used a separate flux. Electrical connections in electronics situations are soldered using what is known as multicore solder, which

means that the flux is contained within the solder and is not separate. The use of a separate flux is just going to make the technique more difficult (and messy) for you.
A separate flux is normally used when soldering something like tin plate and would

not be recommended at all for electrical connections where it is essential to get a good electrical contact.
I use 25W Antex iron as someone else above mentioned.


I also so a warning on You Tube stating that if you use water based flux be

sure to wash it off well afterwards as it can cause corrosion.I don't know if anyone else has any comments regarding this?

[Fishmanoz]

Didn't come back when RDS said it, but the answer not surprisingly is it depends. In order to make a good solder joint,the pieces being joined must first be "tinned". That means it must have a bright flowing thin covering of solder put on it.

 

For

 

solder to flow onto anything, there must be no corrosion. Solder will tend to flow around corrosion and not tin correctly. Flux removes corrosion. With minor corrosion, resin core flux in the solder will easily be up to the job of removing it. This will always

 

be the case when you are soldering 2 recently stripped wires together, as in fitting a decoder to a non-DCC ready loco.

 

However, on more heavily corroded pieces, use of a separate flux may be advisable. Also on larger pieces where it may be more difficult

 

to get the right amount of heat to the joint (a large piece of metal conducts the heat away from the hot spot quickly), application of a separate flux first may give you a better result. As an example, think dropper wire onto a rail, particularly as you want

 

to get a good joint made before you have applied so much heat that the adjacent plastic sleepers are starting to melt.

 

Clearly it is also important that the flux is non-corrosive, which unfortunately tends to be a contradiction in terms.

 

The

 

important lesson is to just be aware of these factors. In practice, if you can tin it efficiently and effectively with resin core, that's all that's needed. If not, separate flux may be your solution.

 

There is a good coverage of soldering technique

 

on the DCC Concepts web site. Just bear in mind as you read it that, as well as educating you, he wants to sell you product.

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, it may be useful for you to think of your bus as being nothing more then a super dooper single point connection from the single track output of your eLink to the track.

 

Also, you don't need DCC point clips if you have droppers on all 3 track

 

outlets from them, or on adjacent pieces connected to all 3 outlets. Then again, they do no harm either and in fact make your single point bus connection a little more super dooper.

[MetmanUK]

PJ_model_trains said:

Hi did you see the comments from RDS 19 October?

With regard to the soldering though. It is probably over 45 years since I soldered my first electrical connection and I have NEVER used a separate flux. Electrical

connections in electronics situations are soldered using what is known as multicore solder, which means that the flux is contained within the solder and is not separate. The use of a separate flux is just going to make the technique more difficult (and messy)

for you.
A separate flux is normally used when soldering something like tin plate and would not be recommended at all for electrical connections where it is essential to get a good electrical contact.
I use 25W Antex iron as someone else above mentioned.


I

also so a warning on You Tube stating that if you use water based flux be sure to wash it off well afterwards as it can cause corrosion.I don't know if anyone else has any comments regarding this?

I should have said at the time - I am using

no-clean water-based flux which I believe means you don't have to clean it off before soldering. I hope this means it isn't corrosive as I had not heard of that problem.

[Fishmanoz]

I would have thought just follow the instructions that come with it.