Help with changing loco address - Updated not working?

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

As a general rule, all decoders have to be programmed on the programming track, including accessory decoders. It is possible to do some things in this regard on the main, but ignore that for now and stick with the programming

track.

The best way of setting up a programming track is to have an isolated siding on your layout (use insulated fishplates) with a double pole double throw break before make switch to programming and track outputs so you can power it from either.

Then you can both use it as part of your layout when not programming, and drive locos in and out using the track output, then switch to programming output when they are in the siding to be programmed.

I am using a separate section of track

connected to the program outlets on the eLink. That way the track n the layout is the track and the programming length are separate. This worked ok do you see any problems doing this?

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

The Hattons accessory decoder mentioned is in fact an ESU Switchpilot. Take a look for that in the thread titles here and you will have many happy hours of reading the problems that people have had programming these. There

is a happy ending too as it is possible but needs the setup instructions to be followed fully to do it.

I am not familiar with the Tawcroft either. I suggest you email RM Support and ask them about it. You will also find more about Traintronics and

DCC Concepts decoders in the threads too. If thinking DCC Concepts as a possibility, look at the the 8-way with the S for Solenoid in the model type as the best option for you.

I did look at the DCC Concepts 8-way Solenoid model, I will check

the thread, I have also emailed eHattons. Many thanks.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Finally, not sure if I've mentioned this before, don't understand why you are starting your points at 61 not 1. 61 is only relevant as the Select starting address and quite irrelevant and likely to confuse with RM. So you

might consider reprogramming your point numbers now.

I remember reading some where 61,62,63,64 should be numbers used. I will change these as you have said starting at #1. Does the DCC Concepts decoder start at #1 or is it just best for RailMaster

that I start at #1?

I set DCC locos ID's in 4 categories and numbered these from 10, from 20, from 30 and from 40 is that ok?

Thanks again for your help and very detailed reply.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ_model_trains said:

I did look at the DCC Concepts 8-way Solenoid model, I will check the thread, I have also emailed eHattons. Many thanks.

Can the Hornby Points and Accessories decoder be used for points and for lights

or signals?
Can they be linked? So that when points change, lights or signals change?
Can the DCC Concepts 8-way Solenoid model do these things?

[Fishmanoz]

It really has little to do with RM or the decoder, it is more for your convenience. RM will program your decoders to any number you want. When programming 4-way decoders like the Hornby 8247, it automatically assigns sequential numbers within a group address

 

( group address 1, your ports are 1,2,3,4, group address 2, you get 5,6,7,8, group address 15, you get 61,62,63,64). DCC Concepts decoders are not grouped, whether you get them singly, 4-way or 8-way. You program them individually to whatever number you want.

 

 

 

With locos, the conventional wisdom has been to code the loco to its running number to make it easier to remember as it is then in front of you on the side of the loco. But using RM, you don't have to remember it as RM does that for you. So use whatever

 

numbers you find convenient. It's the way you set up your locos in groups or just the order with RM, not the loco ID.

 

The 8247 can be programmed port by port to run solenoid point motors, motor driven point motors, or accessories like signals. You

 

do it by adjusting the time the port is turned on from short pulse for solenoids, all the way to continuous for light signals. So you can't run a solenoid and a light signal from the same port as they have to be set up differently. But you could set up 2 decoders

 

with the same port numbers and run 4 lots of points from one, and 4 lots of signals simultaneously from the other.

 

The DCC Concepts decoders have separate switches incorporated into them. In the first instance, they are there to do polarity switching

 

of the frog in live frog points, but there is no reason these cannot be used for light signals, instead of or as well as the frog. So they are more versatile then the 8247 in this respect. Go to the DCC Concepts site, look up accessory decoders and download

 

the manual to see exactly what they can do and how you can wire them for it. And it will also tell you the different way they are programmed, simple but not like the 8247.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

It really has little to do with RM or the decoder, it is more for your convenience. RM will program your decoders to any number you want. When programming 4-way decoders like the Hornby 8247, it automatically assigns sequential

numbers within a group address ( group address 1, your ports are 1,2,3,4, group address 2, you get 5,6,7,8, group address 15, you get 61,62,63,64). DCC Concepts decoders are not grouped, whether you get them singly, 4-way or 8-way. You program them individually

to whatever number you want.

The 8247 can be programmed port by port to run solenoid point motors, motor driven point motors, or accessories like signals. You do it by adjusting the time the port is turned on from short pulse for solenoids, all the

way to continuous for light signals. So you can't run a solenoid and a light signal from the same port as they have to be set up differently. But you could set up 2 decoders with the same port numbers and run 4 lots of points from one, and 4 lots of signals

simultaneously from the other.

The DCC Concepts decoders have separate switches incorporated into them. In the first instance, they are there to do polarity switching of the frog in live frog points, but there is no reason these cannot be used for

light signals, instead of or as well as the frog. So they are more versatile then the 8247 in this respect. Go to the DCC Concepts site, look up accessory decoders and download the manual to see exactly what they can do and how you can wire them for it. And

it will also tell you the different way they are programmed, simple but not like the 8247.

The 8-way decoder from DCC looks good for point solenoid operation, I need 19 ports for 21 points so with 16 on two 8-way cards that may be the best way

to start and see how it goes. If after playing with them and checking the settings I could then decide to continue with the 8 way card for the last 3 points then lights etc or could use Hornby 8247 if I think it is easier.

Taking the two options into

account and considering at this stage I could go either way maybe it is best to leave the points codes set at 61, 62, 63 etc for the DCC Concepts card as you say the Hornby 8247, it automatically assigns sequential numbers within a group address ( group address

1, your ports are 1,2,3,4, group address 2, you get 5,6,7,8 etc) Do you think this is the best way?

[Fishmanoz]

It is entirely for your convenience what numbers you allocate to your points. So if you want them numbered 61 to 81, then do it. All you will need to remember is that if you decide to put an 8247 on the end of 2 8-ways, its group address will be 17.

[Iangwarsop]

I failed to change to the loco ID by the two shorter methods. But, after reading all cv's successfully after waiting an hour I then changed the setting to read only CV1 and then changed the number in the Value box and was finally successful.

May be

 

a while before I get around to points so good luck.

[PJ_model_trains]

Iangwarsop said:

I failed to change to the loco ID by the two shorter methods. But, after reading all cv's successfully after waiting an hour I then changed the setting to read only CV1 and then changed the number in the Value box and was

finally successful.
May be a while before I get around to points so good luck.

What I found was, Hornby say check CV's it only takes a minute but when you do so it states it could take 59 mins 30 seconds. This is indicating we are doing something

wrong.

What I found was click to check CV's and stop the process after it has done a couple. Then change CV1 and click write CV and it worked. I guess that's probably what Hornby meant by saying checking CV only takes a minute to do.

I think

they confuse matters by reading CV's as 3 digits and having the button next to it that refers to changing 4 digit loco code, that was what I tried after getting the message reading CV's take nearly an hour. If we can change the loco IDs via the read and write

CV's do we really need the second 4 digit button? It would be less confusing for everyone. (See what Fishy says he knows his stuff.)

Glad you got to complete the change.

There is only one real problem to DCC controlled model railway...

there is to much to do under the boards but, when we get there we know it will all be worth it ;-) I can't wait LOL.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

It is entirely for your convenience what numbers you allocate to your points. So if you want them numbered 61 to 81, then do it. All you will need to remember is that if you decide to put an 8247 on the end of 2 8-ways, its

group address will be 17.

Hi Fishy. Does this mean all the decoders link in a row and not separately to the DCC Bus and the point motors? Important to know now this now as some decoders will be in one half of the board and others in the other

half of the board.

[Graskie]

I think you'll find that Hornby speeded up reading all the CVs on RM drastically in their latest update, from almost an hour to a minute or so, not that I've ever used that facility, preferring to change CVs with my Elite. Perhaps I should change my mind

 

now, though.

[PJ_model_trains]

Graskie said:

I think you'll find that Hornby speeded up reading all the CVs on RM drastically in their latest update, from almost an hour to a minute or so, not that I've ever used that facility, preferring to change CVs with my Elite. Perhaps

I should change my mind now, though.

You could be right. I noticed some loco read relavent cvs and skipped ones not applicable. With my evening star loco it read most of the 257 cvs, it took a while but not 59 mins. Thank you for your comments.

Changing the loco one only is fast just reading first 2 then stopping the read, change loco id and write it. Job done. Easy when we know. Perhaps you may change your mind now. I am hoping Hornby are going to make the changes to RM soon it will make the software

easier to see the working area and easier to use taking us guys into new levels.

[Fishmanoz]

There is a little confused thinking going on here and, to clear it up, let me start with a very quick lesson in binary maths. If you already know it, bear with me.

 

Each CV actually stores a binary number, which we usually represent as its decimal

 

equivalent for our 10 fingered convenience. The binary number comes as an 8 bit word, being bits 0 to 7, and each bit can only have the value 0 or 1 (that's why it is binary). If it is set to 0, then its decimal equivalent is also 0. If it is set to 1, its

 

decimal value is equal to 2 raised to the power of the bit number. So the least significant bit, bit 0, has a decimal value of 2 to the power 0, which equals 1. Bit 1 is 2 to the power 1, which equals 2. Bit 7 is 2 to the power 7, which is 124. So if we set

 

all bits to 0, the decimal value is 0, and if we set them all to 1, the value is 255. I hope that makes sense.

 

So the largest value that can be in any CV is 255. This is a 3 digit number, so is the light dawning as to why the CVs show 3 digits, not

 

2 or 4 or any other number of digits. And not just any 3 digit number, it must be 255 or below.

 

So let's start with CV 1. This is special in that it stores loco short 2 digit addresses from 1 to 99 only. So now you are going to ask me how it is possible

 

to store a 4 digit address, aren't you? The answer is it must be stored across 3 CVs, being CVs 1, 17 and 18. And so now how do we solve the confusion of which CVs to look at for the address? Well the answer is in the special CV29, in which every bit means

 

something different. And bit 5 stores whether the address is short or long, with 0 being long and 1 short.

 

So storing a 4 digit address is complicated and involves 4 CVs. But RM simplifies the process by asking you to enter your ID in one box, and

 

then it goes and sets all of the necessary CVs 1,17,18,29 for you.

 

I hope that has helped and not confused.

[Fishmanoz]

Now, how long does it take to read or write CVs? The answer is a number of seconds each. And to make sure it can do so reliably, RM pauses between each read. The pause time is set at the 2nd top box of the CV Settings Window. The default is 12 seconds

 

but the manual says you can reduce this, but only until the process gets unreliable, which may be 10 or 11 seconds.

 

So if you are going to read or write the entire 255 CVs, it is going to take a really long time, up to an hour. This is why it is a

 

good idea to limit the number to be read or written.

[Fishmanoz]

PJ_model_trains said:

Hi Fishy. Does this mean all the decoders link in a row and not separately to the DCC Bus and the point motors? Important to know now this now as some decoders will be in one half of the board and others in the other

half of the board.

PJ, no I didn't mean that, sorry to confuse. Each decoder connects to the adcc bus separately, so you connect it to the bus conveniently near the place you put the decoder to be near the points it is going to control.

What

I was referring to was just the addresses going from 61 to 68, then 69 to 76, then finally the 8247 on 77 to 80.

[Fishmanoz]

PJ_model_trains said:


There is only one real problem to DCC controlled model railway... there is to much to do under the boards but, when we get there we know it will all be worth it ;-) I can't wait LOL.

If you think there

is a lot of wiring for DCC, DC users will tell us we should be so lucky, because there is much more for DC. For each isolated section in which you run a separate controller, you have to run a separate circuit. Then points and accessories need separate circuits

each. Us DCC people get it easy, this being one of the advantages of DCC.

[Fishmanoz]

PJ_model_trains said:


There is only one real problem to DCC controlled model railway... there is to much to do under the boards but, when we get there we know it will all be worth it ;-) I can't wait LOL.

If you think there

is a lot of wiring for DCC, DC users will tell us we should be so lucky, because there is much more for DC. For each isolated section in which you run a separate controller, you have to run a separate circuit. Then points and accessories need separate circuits

each. Us DCC people get it easy, this being one of the advantages of DCC.

[Fishmanoz]

I'll stop posing for now, I should have confused you all enough already.

[Fishmanoz]

And hopefully I'm not really posing, just posting.

[Fishmanoz]

Oh, and for more on CVs and what they mean, look at Brian Lambert or http://www.dccwiki.com/CV

[RDS]

@fishmanoz

Very good posting but you may wish to recalculate, 2 to the power 7.

 

Fishmanoz said:

... Bit 7 is 2 to the power 7, which is 124.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

There is a little confused thinking going on here and, to clear it up, let me start with a very quick lesson in binary maths. If you already know it, bear with me.

Each CV actually stores a binary number, which we

usually represent as its decimal equivalent for our 10 fingered convenience. The binary number comes as an 8 bit word, being bits 0 to 7, and each bit can only have the value 0 or 1 (that's why it is binary). If it is set to 0, then its decimal equivalent

is also 0. If it is set to 1, its decimal value is equal to 2 raised to the power of the bit number. So the least significant bit, bit 0, has a decimal value of 2 to the power 0, which equals 1. Bit 1 is 2 to the power 1, which equals 2. Bit 7 is 2 to the

power 7, which is 124. So if we set all bits to 0, the decimal value is 0, and if we set them all to 1, the value is 255. I hope that makes sense.

So the largest value that can be in any CV is 255. This is a 3 digit number, so is the light dawning

as to why the CVs show 3 digits, not 2 or 4 or any other number of digits. And not just any 3 digit number, it must be 255 or below.

So let's start with CV 1. This is special in that it stores loco short 2 digit addresses from 1 to 99 only. So now

you are going to ask me how it is possible to store a 4 digit address, aren't you? The answer is it must be stored across 3 CVs, being CVs 1, 17 and 18. And so now how do we solve the confusion of which CVs to look at for the address? Well the answer is in

the special CV29, in which every bit means something different. And bit 5 stores whether the address is short or long, with 0 being long and 1 short.

So storing a 4 digit address is complicated and involves 4 CVs. But RM simplifies the process by asking

you to enter your ID in one box, and then it goes and sets all of the necessary CVs 1,17,18,29 for you.

I hope that has helped and not confused.

Hi Fishy, well done for your detailed reply, bit, bit, bit.

It all gets a 'BIT'

to take in but I do follow, bit, bit, bit.

What is important to remember, I think, is the question raised always come from those who don't know, the beginners, the ones learning. So at that stage it is important that the instructions are clear (taking

into account all areas that could be confusing) not necessarily the binary bits!

Life is a school, we never stop learning.

Every question is easy... if you know the answer.

The fastest way to learn is to receive clear advise that can only

be understood as it is meant. You do a wonderful job but, life's a school we have to learn, solving any problem is only as easy as knowing the answer or how to do/achieve it.

So we all learn from this, there are areas that confuse the beginners which

should be addressed. I have put together the following for you to check. Please revise the list if necessary or leave a confirmation so that beginners can use this in future and not worry about all the Binary and bits, bits, bits LOL

CHANGING DCC

IDs for Locos in RailMaster

1 - you must first have a programmed section of track. This can be an isolated section of the main layout or a completely separate piece of rail. (Rail/Programme track must be at least 50mm longer than the loco

you are to check/change DV for)
2 - connect track feeds to PROG connections on your eLink
3 - Open your RailMaster software
4 - click single loco icon top left of screen you will see list of Locos
5 - Click on the loco you want to check/change

DCC ID
6 - Next Click on the ' i ' icon on the bottom of the popup page (locomotive settings) a new window will open with a list of locomotive CV's. Brilliant we are nearly there.
7 - click GREEN TICK to read CV's
8 - after it has read first 2 CV's

click icon on bottom row to cancel the reading of the CV's
9 - Now go to CV1 and change the Loco DCC ID (if new with factory settings it will probably be 003) you may want to start at 10 so type in 010. You are now ready to change the loco's CV
10 -

Click write CV's and your new loco DCC ID will be updated. Close this box when complete.

At this stage it is always wise to close all the windows and go back to stage 4 and follow it through to re-read the CV and make sure it has changed. If

it has that stage is now complete, close all windows and return to main RailMaster screen.

Don't forget though you also need to change the DCC ID for the loco (just have just changed it's CV).
To do this re-open the list of Locos again. Go

to the loco you have changed ID from 003 to 010 or number of your choice and change the DCC ID and Detection ID to the same number. e.g. 010

Click the GREEN TICK to complete... then the X to close the screen.

The locos in the Right Hand of the

screen should refresh and the loco here should also now show your new DCC ID. That's it job done. If not close down RailMaster and restart, as with any software doing this ensures a clean default setup.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

PJ_model_trains said:


There is only one real problem to DCC controlled model railway... there is to much to do under the boards but, when we get there we know it will all be worth it ;-) I can't wait LOL.
If

you think there is a lot of wiring for DCC, DC users will tell us we should be so lucky, because there is much more for DC. For each isolated section in which you run a separate controller, you have to run a separate circuit. Then points and accessories need

separate circuits each. Us DCC people get it easy, this being one of the advantages of DCC.

Thanks Fishy. I was just throwing in a bit of humour... but understand what you are saying.

The best way is definitely DCC for anyone considering

setting up from scratch and you guys are always here to help. Many thanks.

[Graskie]

Byting bits is no problem for me, Fishy. After all, I produced a Machine Code game for the old Atari 32K games computer, which sold 20,000 copies in Europe many years ago. However, I'm sure I read somewhere that Hornby had drastically decreased the time

 

for RM to read all 256 CVs (0 to 255, of course). I can't seem to find it but, nevertheless, I understand the principle of "peek" and "poke" in Basic, and I really can't see why it still seems to take far too long reading CV's. Perhaps someone could tell us

 

why it does. Mind you, 11 seconds pause between each reading looks like 11 seconds x 255 = 46.75 minutes alone!!!!!! Why any pause at all? On my old Atari I could peek that number of bytes within seconds. What causes the delay with RM? Wiring, eLink or Elite,

 

the loco's decoder?

[PJ_model_trains]

Graskie said:

Byting bits is no problem for me, Fishy. After all, I produced a Machine Code game for the old Atari 32K games computer, which sold 20,000 copies in Europe many years ago. However, I'm sure I read somewhere that Hornby had drastically

decreased the time for RM to read all 256 CVs (0 to 255, of course). I can't seem to find it but, nevertheless, I understand the principle of "peek" and "poke" in Basic, and I really can't see why it still seems to take far too long reading CV's. Perhaps someone

could tell us why it does. Mind you, 11 seconds pause between each reading looks like 11 seconds x 255 = 46.75 minutes alone!!!!!! Why any pause at all? On my old Atari I could peek that number of bytes within seconds. What causes the delay with RM? Wiring,

eLink or Elite, the loco's decoder?

I agree, why on earth such a long delay, made worse by multiplying the situation as you pointed out Graskie. If their concern is the word reading staying there to the end they could give a 1 second blank so

the user can see it blink as processing. Having said that it is not necessary and just a waste of time. Who wants to sit for half an hour or more waiting for a list of cv's to be read. The more we play with our hobby the more likely we are to want to buy more

Come

on Hornby, you have a good software system, it could be excellent.