Newby to DCC - need some help understanding DCC scale speeds 'out of the box'.

[MikeC176]

Good evening to you all,

 

I am new to the DCC scene and need some help understanding speeds that DCC locos run at please.

 

I have a Win7 laptop running RailMaster, and an ELink interface.

 

I have purchased a selection of new locos over

 

he past 3 weeks or so, including a R2224 LMS Fowler 2-6-4T Class 4P Locomotive '2311', R2959 BR 2-6-4T Thompson L1 67717, R2966 BR 4-6-2 Class A3 'Brown Jack' and R2920X LNER 4-6-0 Class B17/1 'Sandringham'.

 

All locomotives have been fitted with the

 

Hornby R8249 Decoder (the R2920X being factory fitted of course) and have only had adjustments to the Primary Address field.

 

I am looking at 'double heading' some of these locos to run at equal distances from each other on my loop of track however their

 

speeds appear all over the place. I can fully appreciate that different gearing and wheel circumferences will produce different speeds and I can see this with the R2224 Fowler and the R2959 Thompson, but they are close - a couple of MPH speed adjustment on

 

the RailMaster speed controller (without double heading them) and they are running around the track at equal distances from each other and maintaining it very well.

 

My biggest confusion comes with the R2920X B17 and the R2966 A3, both have similar size

 

wheels but set the B17 at 40mph and the A3 needs to run at 25mph to maintain equal distance between them.

 

From what I can see, both locos have the same CV settings apart from the Primary Address. As my B17 is 'DCC Fitted' by Hornby do they set other

 

parameters on it at the factory?

I have also read somewhere that RailMaster have some set parameters that it writes to the locos from its inbuilt Hornby inventory and therefore the matter of speed should be automatically resolved?

 

Any help will be

 

much appreciated.

 

 

[Fishmanoz]

I doubt your factory fitted loco comes with other than the default settings in the decoder.

 

However, when you set up you locos in RM, there are various parameters in the Rm database that are set and I assume written to the decoder CVs when you

 

write the changed ID. You should be able to read these back and they would start with Vmax being set to the loco's maximum scale speed. Maybe a Vmin and possible a speed table are set too. You should be able to check these out by reading the CVs.

 

If

 

you set up 2 of your locos as a consist as you describe, RM must be able to adjust them such that they run at approximately the same speed as each other. However, this is unlikely to be accurate to a high degree and, if you run them as you suggest, one will

 

surely catch up to the other after some time.

 

The only proper solution to your problem will come when loco detection is released. Then you will surely be able to adjust the throttle based on accurate data on how close the locos are to each other.

[RDS]

I thought double heading was to enable 2 loco's (or more) to share the power required for a heavy load and therefore they are connected together. There is no way (brave statement) that they can be left with a gap between them that will remain constant,

 

unless they are run for a very short distance. Maybe I have missed the point!

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

To clarify any confusion over scale speed operation within RailMaster:-

 

Scale speed is a 100% software solution within RailMaster itself which smooths out the speed of locos over their entire speed range so that you can run locos in MPH (or KPH)

 

instead of DCC speed units, the latter of which is somewhat meaningless, having no relative scale between locos.

 

To achieve scale speed, we profiled all Hornby locos going back to 1975 (over 1,600) and measured their speeds from 5mph to their maximum

 

real-life speed. We continue to profile all new Hornby locos. Thus RailMaster also slows down most locos to their maximum real life scale speed as they tend to run far too quickly out of the box. It does this in most scales from Z to O scale.

 

When setting

 

up up your Hornby loco it is important that you select the correct loco (the exact one, not a variant) from the list in loco settings otherwise it is likely not to run at the correct scale speed. This is because each loco has a different motor, gearing, wheels

 

etc. You will see, for example, that there are some 20 variants of the Flying Scotsman alone, each with a different running characteristics so you need to choose your loco based on the R number to be sure.

 

You can of course set up non-Hornby locos with

 

RailMaster, for scale speed operation and details are provided in the PDF guide, although RailMaster extrapolates the scale speed below the maximum for user-profiled locos. A new function, available later with loco detection, will allow the fully automatic

 

profiling of any loco at any scale across the entire speed range.

 

Another important factor is the loco decoder chip. We have assumed that the Hornby R8249 or Sapphire is being used (which have the same settings), however changing any of the speed curves

 

CVs on the chips will alter the scale speed operation. RailMaster does not write any CVs at all to achieve scale speed operation. It is handled completely by the software. Fortunately, the majority of loco decoders available have the same speed-related settings

 

as the Hornby chips. Changing the CV acceleration and deceleration values have no effect on scale speeds.

 

There will be slight differences in scale speeds between locos due to age, cleanliness of track, wheels and pick-ups and other factors mentioned

 

in the RailMaster PDF guide, however we have found it to be very accurate overall and certainly far better than using DCC speed steps. On very rare occasions (just once, thus far) mistakes have been made on profiled locos. As you can imagine a great deal of

 

work was carried out over a year to profile all locos ready for use. If you feel a loco is definitely running at a significantly different speed then let us know (preferably through the Help Request system within RailMaster). We have every loco available to

 

test this.

 

We hope this explains all you should need to know about scale speed operation. Most of this information is in the RailMaster PDF guide.

 

[PJ_model_trains]

Thank you again Hornby support you are doing a fantastic job.

[Fishmanoz]

My mistake re writing to CVs for this, I wondered about that as I wrote my post.

 

RDS, I think it is clear what a consist is supposed to do, but I thought from Mike's post he was trying to use it to keep his locos separated rather then together

 

but, as we both said, this will be doomed by inaccuracies. And loco detection will be the answer.

[LMS_Dave]

Ahead of purchasing my eLink controller back in May 2013, I read the Hornby pdf instructions that explained the "Speed Factor" function and was immediately enthused. Not only had Hornby done all the hard work on their own locos, but I was also promised

 

"If you wish to add another manufacturer’s loco and have it run at scale speed (or near scale speed) you can do this quite easily by pressing the scale speed button". Unfortunately, once I had obtained the eLink and learnt enough to successfully convert some

 

of my non-Hornby locos to DCC, I began to think that the "quite easily" promise wasn't all I'd hoped.

 

It was also then that I realized a clear discrepancy in the pdf instructions - one that still exists in the current version 1.53 Revision dated September

 

2013. Whilst the instructions require "set up an oval of track exactly 6.274m in length" to time the locomotives, the accompanying screen shot of the "Enter new speed factor" window states "Oval of 4 x R603 long straights + 8 x R8262 4th radius double curves"

 

whereas the diagram below the screen shot indicates "Track layout to perform scale speed tests using Hornby track: 2 x R603 long straights 4 x R8262 4th radius double curves". Since the software was consistent with the screen shot and my understanding of a

 

6.274m oval, I went with the 4 x R603 long straights + 8 x R8262 4th radius double curves. However...

 

It just doesn't work. Yes, the software adjusts the speeds when I enter figures in to the "Enter new speed factor" window, but the results - timed

 

with the locos still at full speed on the Test Oval - just don't make sense. I even went to the trouble of calculating what the times at scaled speeds around a 6.274m track should be at OO scale, ie 4mm to one foot and HO scale, ie 3.5mm to one foot, to see

 

if there was some correlation. Alas not.

 

The poor attention to the detail of the pdf instructions and the inexplicable results of the Speed Factor software function seem to suggest to me that this aspect of the eLink product set hasn't been properly

 

addressed. Whilst the promise of "A new function, available later with loco detection, will allow the fully automatic profiling of any loco at any scale across the entire speed range", there is no indication of when this will be available not to mention the

 

likely additional cost.

 

If Hornby couldn't get the basic Speed Factor function and instructions correct for maximum speed over a standard oval, how will it manage with the complexity of calculating movement across more complicated layouts?

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Dave, for a start, it has nothing to do with your eLink which is just an interface. It is RM you are having the problem with. And you need to update to v1.55 by the way, although it is unlikely it will change anything.

 

For a start, can I suggest

 

you email HRMS from within the Help window of RM and explain your problem. They are very responsive and may even reply here as they monitor these forums.

 

And take a look at the loco detection threads in the RM forum to get the latest wisdom on it.

 

There is an amount of recent discussion there.

[MikeC176]

Good evening to you all,

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

I have an update - I have just gone out and purchased a R2921 BR 4-6-0 Class B17/1 'Thorpe Hall' locomotive and fitted it with a R8249 decoder... and it runs slightly slower than the R2920X

 

B17/1 'Sandringham' mentioned in my first post :-(

 

HornbyRailMasterSuport -

1 - All locomotives are selected in RailMaster using their Hornby 'R' numbers.

2 - All decoders on the above mentioned locomotives are the Hornby R8249 decoder, and the

 

only setting that has been modified is the 'Primary Address' from its default (003) to my required number.

-- I will send a Help Request to Railmaster as suggested.

 

Could someone else check that if they were to setup a R2920 or R2921 in RailMaster

 

that the top speed is 57mph, Cruising Speed Default is 40mph and default shunting speed is 10mph please?

 

Thank you,

 

[LMS_Dave]

Fishmanoz said:

Hi Dave, for a start, it has nothing to do with your eLink which is just an interface. It is RM you are having the problem with. And you need to update to v1.55 by the way, although it is unlikely it will change anything.



For a start, can I suggest you email HRMS from within the Help window of RM and explain your problem. They are very responsive and may even reply here as they monitor these forums.

And take a look at the loco detection threads in the RM forum

to get the latest wisdom on it. There is an amount of recent discussion there.

[LMS_Dave]

Hi Fishmanoz,

 

Thank-you for taking the time to reply.

 

Fortunately, I do know enough about electronics and computing to understand what the eLink box is. I have also been running v1.55 of the RailMaster Application since it was first released.

 

Unless

 

I'm much mistaken - and please do correct me if I am - the eLink box wouldn't be much use with the accompanying Application?

 

So, your suggestion that the 2 items are separate products and that one of them has nothing to do with Hornby is illogical.

 

To be sure, I had another look at the main screen of the RailMaster Application and it definitely says "Hornby" on the bottom left. This being the Hornby DCC forum, I therefore don't think it inappropriate to raise an issue about RailMaster here in the hope

 

that someone else may have experienced the same product issue as I have.

 

My non-Hornby locos still don't run at anything like scale speed when the throttles are set to 100 percent and I've used the Application to correct them. Therefore, I maintain

 

what I've already said - ie Hornby's claim that "If you wish to add another manufacturer’s loco and have it run at scale speed (or near scale speed) you can do this quite easily by pressing the scale speed button" is erroneous.

[RDS]

@LMS_Dave

First of all there is no suggestion in Fishmanoz's reply that one of the Products has nothing to do with Hornby.

Both RailMaster and elink are Hornby products and you are correct when you say, the elink box is no use without the application

 

RailMaster.

RailMaster can be used without elink though, by connecting a Hornby Elite controller which is what I use.

This forum contains both DCC and RailMaster sections and you are absolutely right to raise your query here.

The current version of

 

RailMaster instructions is v1.55 and if you have always had an internet connection, this should be the version that is contained in your RailMaster folder.

 

Incidentally, I am also having problems getting loco's to run at anything like scale speeds!

[sirhubert]

I am new to DCC and have started with a Hornby Elink. However, my layout is n gauge so I have( currently) two Farish locos - a Class 55 and a Class 101. I used a Bachman 36-558A decoder in each. When I run the locos in Dc, the speed is slower than my old

 

locos but still ok. However when running DCC using Elink and Railmaster software the speed is quite slow. I measured it at 60mph scale speed. What am I doing wrong? There seems to be no way to speed upbthe lico to the same speed I get running it DC.

[MikeC176]

Sadly I am getting nowhere with this and beginning to wonder if I have a faulty ELink. Got a new R2622 Sir Pelleas and fitted it with a new R8249 decoder. Just running it around the track and 31mph is slower than 30... Has anyone ever seen this before?

 

Cheers

[Fishmanoz]

Doesn't seem right but you are trying to set speeds very close to each other. Do you have any such problems with speeds further apart?

 

Worth remembering too that DCC doesn't do continuously variable speed rather it goes in speed steps. However,

 

with the default being 128 steps, this shouldn't cause any noticeable issues.

[Fishmanoz]

sirhubert said:

I am new to DCC and have started with a Hornby Elink. However, my layout is n gauge so I have( currently) two Farish locos - a Class 55 and a Class 101. I used a Bachman 36-558A decoder in each. When I run the locos in Dc,

the speed is slower than my old locos but still ok. However when running DCC using Elink and Railmaster software the speed is quite slow. I measured it at 60mph scale speed. What am I doing wrong? There seems to be no way to speed upbthe lico to the same speed

I get running it DC.

No one seems to have a good answer for you Hubert. Occurs to me that, as you are using non-Hornby locos, you are going to have to set up scale speeds yourself using the Hornby method in the manual as a guide. Then you can of

course do you own adjustments to Vmax to get the results you want. You will need to look at how to write CVs to do it, and you can't if using Select.

[HornbyRailMasterSupport]

The R2622 Sir Pelleas N15 loco is not listed in any official Hornby catalogue from 1975 to the present day, therefore it must have been a special edition. Although RailMaster lists over 1,600 Hornby locos, including many special editions, some can be missing.

 

Try

 

selecting R2623 from the list of locos which is another N15 class loco from the same period and therefore should have the same motor and gearing arrangement.

 

The R2622 Sir Pelleas is now being added to the database, with scale speed factors.

 

[MikeC176]

Thank you for your reply HornbyRailMasterSupport, but sadly it looks like most if not all of my locomotives have this 30mph going faster than 31mph problem (I am looking at a R2843 Schools Class 'Dulwich' which is doing the same thing right now, and a

 

previously tested R2959 Thompson does it too). Some locos also seem to pause for a split second when adjusting speeds, almost as though they are 'thinking' - not sure if this has anything to do with it?

 

I'm sure you guys can appreciate that I am getting

 

very frustrated with the RM / ELink that I have purchased as it seems it has never worked as it should. Still none of my locomotives run at the same speed if the same speed is selected in RM. All of my locomotives are new, the oldest being purchased late last

 

year. All are running Hornby R8249 Decoders that have just had the first field for the 'Primary Address' amended and no other amendments done. The track is clean. RM is the latest version. 'Use Scale Speeds' is and has always been selected. All locomotives

 

have been selected by their correct R numbers in RM apart from St Pelleas which 'Sir Kay' perameters was used instead.

 

Please help me............. I am tempted to completely wipe my laptop and start again although its not a particularly old installation

 

of Win7......

[Cowplain]

LMS_Dave said:

Ahead of purchasing my eLink controller back in May 2013, I read the Hornby pdf instructions that explained the "Speed Factor" function and was immediately enthused. Not only had Hornby done all the hard work on their own locos,

but I was also promised "If you wish to add another manufacturer’s loco and have it run at scale speed (or near scale speed) you can do this quite easily by pressing the scale speed button". Unfortunately, once I had obtained the eLink and learnt enough to

successfully convert some of my non-Hornby locos to DCC, I began to think that the "quite easily" promise wasn't all I'd hoped.

It was also then that I realized a clear discrepancy in the pdf instructions - one that still exists in the current version

1.53 Revision dated September 2013. Whilst the instructions require "set up an oval of track exactly 6.274m in length" to time the locomotives, the accompanying screen shot of the "Enter new speed factor" window states "Oval of 4 x R603 long straights + 8

x R8262 4th radius double curves" whereas the diagram below the screen shot indicates "Track layout to perform scale speed tests using Hornby track: 2 x R603 long straights 4 x R8262 4th radius double curves". Since the software was consistent with the screen

shot and my understanding of a 6.274m oval, I went with the 4 x R603 long straights + 8 x R8262 4th radius double curves. However...

It just doesn't work. Yes, the software adjusts the speeds when I enter figures in to the "Enter new speed factor" window,

but the results - timed with the locos still at full speed on the Test Oval - just don't make sense. I even went to the trouble of calculating what the times at scaled speeds around a 6.274m track should be at OO scale, ie 4mm to one foot and HO scale, ie

3.5mm to one foot, to see if there was some correlation. Alas not.

The poor attention to the detail of the pdf instructions and the inexplicable results of the Speed Factor software function seem to suggest to me that this aspect of the eLink product

set hasn't been properly addressed. Whilst the promise of "A new function, available later with loco detection, will allow the fully automatic profiling of any loco at any scale across the entire speed range", there is no indication of when this will be available

not to mention the likely additional cost.

If Hornby couldn't get the basic Speed Factor function and instructions correct for maximum speed over a standard oval, how will it manage with the complexity of calculating movement across more complicated

layouts?

[Cowplain]

I started a new thread on this general subject back in December. The thread title was "Speed Factors for Non Hornby Locomotives.

I was having issues with setting up scale speed on another manufacturers loco. The thread was not followed so I raised the

 

issue directly with HRMS through Customer Support. Fundamentally I was told that it should work. The following is an extract from the last email I sent to customer service:

Many thanks for your response to my question regarding the setting of scale speeds

 

on non-Hornby Locomotives through RailMaster.

I understand that the scale speeds are not expected to be entirely accurate, but I think they should be a bit more accurate than I am achieving. I said that the track I am using is about 5 inches longer than

 

the 6.274 m stated in the RM Guide, infact it is 6.426m, 0.152 m longer. Unfortunately I do not have the room to set up a specific test track so I have to use the closest I can get to it on my layout. Not accurate, but should get me close to the same result.

 

I can also confirm that I am setting the scale max speed to the same as that for the equivalent Hornby Loco.

Since forwarding my question I have conducted some further test with RM set up to run the loco at 5/10/20/30 MPH Scale speed and just using the

 

speed=distance/time calculation and then multiplying the answer by 76 to get the scale speed I achieved the following results:

5MPH – 2.5 MPH

10MPH – 50.34 MPH

20MPH – 66.21 MPH

30MPH – 77.5 MPH

As you can see it is quite a significant difference

 

and much larger than I would have expected.

 

I hope this information helps and many thanks for your help.

[LMS_Dave]

Hi Cowplain.

 

Apologies for the long pause in proceedings. Did you ever get anywhere with your query on scale speeds?

 

Having read back through this thread, I also think that MikeC176's query on the 30mph/31mph was that his locos actually slow

 

down as he moves the slider from 30mph to 31mph? I tried this myself and have noticed the same thing, although at different speeds with different locos.

[Cowplain]

Hi Cowplain.

 

Apologies for the long pause in proceedings. Did you ever get anywhere with your query on scale speeds?

 

Having read back through this thread, I also think that MikeC176's query on the 30mph/31mph was that his locos actually slow

 

down as he moves the slider from 30mph to 31mph? I tried this myself and have noticed the same thing, although at different speeds with different locos.

Hi Dave,

Sorry to take so long to respond to your post (nearly a year!), but I was sidetracked onto other aspects of progressing with my layout.

However, I am now back with the subject and am still experiencing the same problems. I had another try last night and still the same using the RM Scale Speed method (Time trial and input to the Loco Setup) with no joy. I have tried tinkering with CV values and it did make a difference, but to bring the speeds close to those required will be very time consuming and requires that old scientific method of trial and error!

My real frustration is that I require this loco to double head with a similar Hornby loco to pull my CMX Track cleaner around. For all other applications I can probably muddle through until LD is available, but I am yet to be convinced that this will solve my particular problem.