Programming to Automate your layout

[Graskie]

I have that loco and must admit, I've had no problem with breaks in its sound, PJ.

[PJ_model_trains]

It has to be the chip.

 

Nice Loco Graskie, pity about sound on acceleration program.

[Fishmanoz]

A couple of things there PJ.

 

The only way a loco can run in reverse on one copy of RM and forward in another is if you have set one copy up to run all locos in the reverse and not done it in the other. Apart from this setting affecting all locos

 

in RM, direction is set in the decoder in CV29, as you know.

 

The other is that you don't seem to have tried what I suggested in my last and tried adjusting CVs 53-55 as per the other thread a linked you to?

 

And pleased it is all going so well

 

with this exception.

[Fishmanoz]

I would point out again my conclusion that this is not a fault but a fine-tuning issue. If you download the manual, it tells you exactly what the CVs do that I believe bears directly on your problem.

 

It would be a pity to get a replacement loco,

 

only to find it does exactly the same thing until the decoder is set correctly for you particular loco.

 

I also find it interesting that the blue box company has implemented these CVs in their relatively basic chip. One might suspect it is because they

 

have found adjustment is needed to ensure their locos run well. This isn't a criticism as all they are doing is utilising the power of DCC to get optimum performance out of their locos.

 

Then it may be my hat talking again. It should be easy to tell

 

this though - you get interruptions in the sound as it goes faster and slower. This is caused by the distraction and effort in brushing the flies away - no corks you know.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

I would point out again my conclusion that this is not a fault but a fine-tuning issue. If you download the manual, it tells you exactly what the CVs do that I believe bears directly on your problem.

It would be a

pity to get a replacement loco, only to find it does exactly the same thing until the decoder is set correctly for you particular loco.

I also find it interesting that the blue box company has implemented these CVs in their relatively basic chip. One

might suspect it is because they have found adjustment is needed to ensure their locos run well. This isn't a criticism as all they are doing is utilising the power of DCC to get optimum performance out of their locos.

Then it may be my hat talking

again. It should be easy to tell this though - you get interruptions in the sound as it goes faster and slower. This is caused by the distraction and effort in brushing the flies away - no corks you know.

Hi thanks

I have a few things

to sort and will be admitted to hospital for tests following all the problems last year that have not gone away. Hence the rush to get the computer etc sorted.

I will check the CV's mentioned as soon as I can.

Regarding the forward and reverse

issue.

The only way a loco can run in reverse on one copy of RM and forward in another is if you have set one copy up to run all locos in the reverse and not done it in the other. Apart from this setting affecting all locos in RM, direction

is set in the decoder in CV29, as you know.

What I am saying is... a loco, the one mentioned, has run forwards and reverse in the same installation of RM without changing anything! Whether possible or not it has done so.

CV29

was changed as discussed to correct the forward and reverse.

Due to the stuttering sound issues the CV's were reset to default and after testing ran correctly. No need to change CV29?

Then a new download of RM was installed in the new PC. The

loco runs forward for reverse and reverse for forward. Yet all other trains are OK?

Before changing CV29 to correct the directional movement it may be an idea to reset the CV's again through the new RM and test again. Once I have done this then look

at the CV's you mentioned 6 May as detailed below for easy reference. I will get back to these as soon as I can but, my health comes first and the problems are related to those last year that led to an operation with risk to life. At present my wife and myself

are taking health problems in turns! Thanks for your help and patience.

Briefly, my conclusions run along these lines: the chances are the decoder isn't faulty, rather needs some fine tuning; there doesn't appear to be any adjustment to delay

before chuffs start or stop, as I suggested might be the problem; and the most likely area for adjustment would seem to be in load control which is set in CVs 53-56.

[96RAF]

PJ_model_trains said:

What I am saying is... a loco, the one mentioned, has run forwards and reverse in the same installation of RM without changing anything! Whether possible or not it has done so.

CV29 was changed as discussed to

correct the forward and reverse.

Due to the stuttering sound issues the CV's were reset to default and after testing ran correctly. No need to change CV29?

Then a new download of RM was installed in the new PC. The loco runs forward for reverse

and reverse for forward. Yet all other trains are OK?

Before changing CV29 to correct the directional movement it may be an idea to reset the CV's again through the new RM and test again. Once I have done this then look at the CV's you mentioned 6 May

as detailed below for easy reference. I will get back to these as soon as I can but, my health comes first and the problems are related to those last year that led to an operation with risk to life. At present my wife and myself are taking health problems

in turns! Thanks for your help and patience.


Briefly, my conclusions run along these lines: the chances are the decoder isn't faulty, rather needs some fine tuning; there doesn't appear to be any adjustment to delay before chuffs start or stop,

as I suggested might be the problem; and the most likely area for adjustment would seem to be in load control which is set in CVs 53-56.

There is history on the forums of RM switching loco directions after an update - can't remember

which one it was - but the answer in the end was to shut down and restart RM when said problem reverted to previous running state.
In the end you can set your loco direction individually or collectively via CV29, or via the Elite menus, or from within RM.
Some

combination of these methods will get all your locos running in the same direction relative to convention (i.e. all trains arrive in a station in UK from the right hand end, unless a single line).
That said I have a Hornby B1 that runs contra direction

on the rolling road via the Elite but OK in RM. Maybe I need to take my own advice...

[Fishmanoz]

Fishmanoz said:

Just checked and the thread I'm referring to is https://www.hornby.com/forums/hornby-forums/hornby-digital/6615/ ignore that this thread is particularly about a diesel and concentrate on the adjustments needed.

Another

recent thread on these CVs is at https://www.hornby.com/forums/hornby-forums/hornby-digital/6688/?page=1&added=false

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Have just spent a little time reading the Loksound manual. This decoder is highly capable, flexible and can operate in many modes with many different systems and makes of loco. Consequently, the manual is long and technically

complex and takes some time to determine the things that apply to DCC operation (yes it is able to operate in a number of systems including DC), and what of these may be relevant to your problem PJ.

Briefly, my conclusions run along these lines: the

chances are the decoder isn't faulty, rather needs some fine tuning; there doesn't appear to be any adjustment to delay before chuffs start or stop, as I suggested might be the problem; and the most likely area for adjustment would seem to be in load control

which is set in CVs 53-56.

These Cvs are adjusted to ensure smooth operation of the loco without jerkiness as it runs or changes speed. You might remember there has been recent discussion in the forums on adjustment of these with blue box decoders,

so taking a look at these threads might be useful.

But if this is the problem, it will only be happening because there is some jerkiness in the operation of the loco, and the chuffs will be responding with this jerkiness. So the question PJ is whether

you find the loco runs as smoothly as your locos that have correctly operating sounds, or is it less smooth?

And in this regard, is there anything in the operating instructions about adjustments to CVs 53-56?

And Ray, having read the manual,

I'm yet to be convinced that reblowing does more than replace sound files themselves. When I first read yours saying it is more complicated, I thought this may be right as you can envisage that it might include the way sounds interact with movement. But beyond

the fact that things will be different for steam, diesel and electric, I think these interactions are pre-defined and so built into the decoder rather than part of what comes with particular sound files.

Before I start the CV's in the range

53-56 are currently

Royal Signals 4-6-0 53 Control ref voltage 140
Royal Signals 4-6-0 54 Load control 048
Royal Signals 4-6-0 55 Load control 048
Royal Signals 4-6-0 56 Load control range 255

Which way and to what value steps do you

think I should try or is it just try and see what happens?

[PJ_model_trains]

To make the above clearer...

 

CV53 = 140 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Control ref voltage

CV54 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control

CV55 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control

CV56 = 255 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control range

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, the more recent thread on this in the DCC forum is getting a little old now being before your absence. The thread title has to do with jittery running and I'm sure you can find it easily.

 

But my more general advice to you is to do forum searches

 

on each of the CV numbers, then google searches and see what turns up.

 

But before you go off to do that yourself I did a forum search on CV53 myself, and look what turned up - https://www.hornby.com/forums/hornby-forums/hornby-digital/3528/?page=1#post40240

 

Now

 

is that or is that not relevant or not? Seems the V4 is known for needing fine adjustment in this area.

 

Like I said, not faulty but in need of fine tuning.

[Fishmanoz]

The recent thread is https://www.hornby.com/forums/hornby-forums/hornby-digital/6688/

[PJ_model_trains]

@fishmanoz

 

Fishy, the problem is not Jerky stopping and starting, it is the timing of the sound. The train speeds up and slows down correctly, it is the sound that is out of sync.

 

Before I alter any CV's I first run a series of tests as I

 

have a new computer now attached. It should make no difference but as it is a major change I think it best to know where we are before we start.

 

Tests carried out today.

 

TEST-1 - From stop,

shunt then cruise then shunt then stop

RESULT

 

- OK

 

TEST-2 - From stop,

forward to commands at 5mph at 2.5 seconds (As Ray's recommendation) this worked except for last 5mph slowing down when it made a quick shunt to accelerate sound. I reduced the timing by 0.5 seconds and it stopped this.

 

 

RESULT - OK except last 5 seconds?

 

TEST-3 - from stop,

Accelerate Forward [0] to [50], 0.5 allowing 36 seconds then

Decelerate Forward [60] to [5], 0.5 allowing 30 seconds then

Decelerate Forward [5] to [0] allowing 10 seconds then stop

 

This

 

is where the errors occur, one sound error accelerating, 5 or 6 de-accelerating

Sound errors defined - cut off as wanting to slow down whilst accelerating, shunt to accelerate sound when de-accelerating but only as a stutter of sound.

RESULT - NOT GOOD

 

- Sound out of sync with loco speed, worse de-accelerating

 

I have copied the message from Richard Taylor DCC Concepts below so we have all information in one place regarding this is issue.

 

This is a reply from Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts.

 

See paragraph 'If you have problems with...'

 

NOTE my problem is not the loco driving, it is the sound not being in sync with the loco speed.

 

>>>>>Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts message Start>>>>Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts message

 

End<<<

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, don't need to say again what your problem is, I understand exactly from your previous posts and tests. I'm hypothesising that as the deceleration occurs,there is a slight amount of overcompensation of back emf which means that the loco slows to a little

 

under the set speed, leading to the back emf kicking in to get it back, pushing it slightly over the set speed, leading to it coasting back down again. This may be almost imperceptible as it runs but still enough to cause the sound effects to cut in and out

 

to follow this loco motion, hence your problem. It should not be considered unusual that such a thing might occur as, from an electrical engineering point of view, this is exactly what classical control system theory tells you will happen. The trick is adjustment

 

to minimise it.

 

We are not talking any major change in anything to experiment with this, just some minor adjustment of the CVs affecting this area of load control and running. You can always get back to where you started given you have a record of

 

the CVs, and you can write 8 to CV8 to reset. Just try it.

[Fishmanoz]

Oh, and what I am suggesting happens at each speed step as it increases speed, and then at each speed step as it decreases. The CV adjustments will only be out very slightly and less critical on acceleration than deceleration, hence it occurring st more

 

speed steps decelerating than accelerating.

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Oh, and what I am suggesting happens at each speed step as it increases speed, and then at each speed step as it decreases. The CV adjustments will only be out very slightly and less critical on acceleration than deceleration,

hence it occurring st more speed steps decelerating than accelerating.

Looking at these CV values below shall I leave CV53 control voltage and try altering load control, one at a time?

Would you suggest altering in 1's or 5's as mentioned

by Richard at DCC Concepts?

The next question is, shall I alter in + or -

Looking at both ESU & B*mann details below it appears to me, my setting are probably to high for CV54 & CV55 and these are probably the first to to experiment with changing.

My values are also higher than the high performance motor.

My current values are:
CV53 = 140 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Control ref voltage
CV54 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control
CV55 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control
CV56 = 255 Royal

Signals 4-6-0 Load control range

I have been looking for more information on the CV's and found the following.

I looked on page 18 of ESU User Manual
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/sound_decoder.pdf
These refer to different motors

and I don't know what motor is in the B*mann Royal Signals train. I would have thought it doubtful to be the high performance motor.

Parameters for Fleischmann® motors
Engines with the traditional Fleischmann® motor
should be programmed as follows:
CV

54 = about 14 – 18 (Mine 48)
CV 55 = 20 (Mine 48)

Parameters for Märklin® high performance
motor
The 5-pole high performance motor from Märklin®
(series 37xxx) is well suited for the LokSound decoder
when programmed as follows:
CV

54 = about 20 – 25
CV 55 = 38

I also looked at page 1 & 2, B*mann DCC Onboard
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/DCC_onboard_general.pdf

CV53 Determines the back EMF that the motor should supply at maximum speed. The more efficient the

motor, the higher this value may be. Reduce this value if the engine does not reach its designed maximum speed.
Range 0-63 default 42 (Mine 140)

CV54 Determines the load control effect. The higher the value, the stronger the impact
on the motor.
Range

0-63 default 32 (Mine 48)

CV55 Determines the momentum of the motor. Motors with large flywheels of large diameter require a smaller value.
Range 0-63 default 24 (Mine 48)

Interesting in the B*mann leaflet it says... Inappropriate CV values

may cause the decoder to operate incorrectly: if in doubt please take advice from your retailer or Bachmann Europe plc.

When I contacted them I got no positive response. I have not contacted the retailer yet, eH, Liverpool, hopefully a few tweaks may

solve the problem.

I welcome comments/suggestions for changing the CV's above.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Oh, and what I am suggesting happens at each speed step as it increases speed, and then at each speed step as it decreases. The CV adjustments will only be out very slightly and less critical on acceleration than deceleration,

hence it occurring st more speed steps decelerating than accelerating.

Looking at these CV values below shall I leave CV53 control voltage and try altering load control, one at a time?

Would you suggest altering in 1's or 5's as mentioned

by Richard at DCC Concepts?

The next question is, shall I alter in + or -

Looking at both ESU & B*mann details below it appears to me, my setting are probably to high for CV54 & CV55 and these are probably the first to to experiment with changing.

My values are also higher than the high performance motor.

My current values are:
CV53 = 140 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Control ref voltage
CV54 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control
CV55 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control
CV56 = 255 Royal

Signals 4-6-0 Load control range

I have been looking for more information on the CV's and found the following.

I looked on page 18 of ESU User Manual
http://www.b*mann.co.uk/pdfs/sound_decoder.pdf cut & paste and change b*mann to full

name
These refer to different motors and I don't know what motor is in the B*mann Royal Signals train. I would have thought it doubtful to be the high performance motor.

Parameters for Fleischmann® motors
Engines with the traditional Fleischmann®

motor
should be programmed as follows:
CV 54 = about 14 – 18 (Mine 48)
CV 55 = 20 (Mine 48)

Parameters for Märklin® high performance
motor
The 5-pole high performance motor from Märklin®
(series 37xxx) is well suited for the LokSound

decoder
when programmed as follows:
CV 54 = about 20 – 25
CV 55 = 38

I also looked at page 1 & 2, B*mann DCC Onboard
http://www.b*mann.co.uk/pdfs/DCC_onboard_general.pdf cut & paste and change b*mann to full name

CV53 Determines

the back EMF that the motor should supply at maximum speed. The more efficient the motor, the higher this value may be. Reduce this value if the engine does not reach its designed maximum speed.
Range 0-63 default 42 (Mine 140)

CV54 Determines the

load control effect. The higher the value, the stronger the impact
on the motor.
Range 0-63 default 32 (Mine 48)

CV55 Determines the momentum of the motor. Motors with large flywheels of large diameter require a smaller value.
Range 0-63 default

24 (Mine 48)

Interesting in the B*mann leaflet it says... Inappropriate CV values may cause the decoder to operate incorrectly: if in doubt please take advice from your retailer or Bachmann Europe plc.

When I contacted them I got no positive

response. I have not contacted the retailer yet, eH, Liverpool, hopefully a few tweaks may solve the problem.

I welcome comments/suggestions for changing the CV's above.

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Fishmanoz said:

Oh, and what I am suggesting happens at each speed step as it increases speed, and then at each speed step as it decreases. The CV adjustments will only be out very slightly and less critical on acceleration than deceleration,

hence it occurring st more speed steps decelerating than accelerating.

Looking at these CV values below shall I leave CV53 control voltage and try altering load control, one at a time?

Would you suggest altering in 1's or 5's as mentioned

by Richard at DCC Concepts?

The next question is, shall I alter in + or -

Looking at both E S U & B*mann details below it appears to me, my setting are probably to high for CV54 & CV55 and these are probably the first to to experiment with changing.

My values are also higher than the high performance motor.

My current values are:
CV53 = 140 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Control ref voltage
CV54 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control
CV55 = 048 Royal Signals 4-6-0 Load control
CV56 = 255 Royal

Signals 4-6-0 Load control range

I have been looking for more information on the CV's and found the following.

I looked on page 18 of E S U User Manual
http://www.b*mann.co.uk/pdfs/sound_decoder.pdf cut & paste and change b*mann to

full name
These refer to different motors and I don't know what motor is in the B*mann Royal Signals train. I would have thought it doubtful to be the high performance motor.

Parameters for Fleisch mann motors
Engines with the traditional Fleisch

mann motor
should be programmed as follows:
CV 54 = about 14 – 18 (Mine 48)
CV 55 = 20 (Mine 48)

Parameters for Märklin® high performance
motor
The 5-pole high performance motor from Marklin
(series 37xxx) is well suited for the LokSound

decoder
when programmed as follows:
CV 54 = about 20 – 25
CV 55 = 38

I also looked at page 1 & 2, B*mann DCC Onboard
http://www.b*mann.co.uk/pdfs/DCC_onboard_general.pdf cut & paste and change b*mann to full name

CV53 Determines

the back EMF that the motor should supply at maximum speed. The more efficient the motor, the higher this value may be. Reduce this value if the engine does not reach its designed maximum speed.
Range 0-63 default 42 (Mine 140)

CV54 Determines the

load control effect. The higher the value, the stronger the impact
on the motor.
Range 0-63 default 32 (Mine 48)

CV55 Determines the momentum of the motor. Motors with large flywheels of large diameter require a smaller value.
Range 0-63 default

24 (Mine 48)

Interesting in the B*mann leaflet it says... Inappropriate CV values may cause the decoder to operate incorrectly: if in doubt please take advice from your retailer or B*mann Europe plc.

When I contacted them I got no positive response.

I have not contacted the retailer yet, eH, Liverpool, hopefully a few tweaks may solve the problem.

I welcome comments/suggestions for changing the CV's above.

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

PJ, the link I gave you 2 says ago above to the recent thread tells you what to do. Just follow what he says.

[Fishmanoz]

That's 2 days ago.

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi Fishy

 

The reason I included the above was because it referred to CV53 to CV56 and no mention of CV52

 

But in the link you referred to on 26th

https://www.hornby.com/forums/hornby-forums/hornby-digital/3528/?page=1#post40240

 

It

 

states... Clearly CV52 was the key.

 

Bringing together the ones discussed by DCC Concepts and my CV's we have

 

Default ---- Suggested - Mine now

CV02 - 002 - 003 - 003

CV03 - 072 - 000 - 179

CV05 - 255 - 150 - 050

 

CV52 - 032 -

 

010 - 006

CV53 - 140 - 140 - 140

Cv54 - 048 - 048 - 048

CV55 - 032 - 140 - 048

CV56 - 255 - 255 - 255

 

I will try the changes tomorrow. Possibly in this order...

CV55 try 140

CV52 try 010 (with CV55 @ 140 and without)

 

Comments

 

welcome regarding CV3 & CV5 above

 

Just to confirm I have not included

CV3 Railcom in Cv29 when calculated and

CV5 I don't use Long Loco Address

 

PJ

[Fishmanoz]

Good luck. You have nearly a week to play around before we hear the outcome.

 

I know to some extent you a playing about in the dark, except for the clues in the threads I found. There are more if you do searches on those CV numbers, I just picked

 

those 2 for you. I know nothing more then I found, not having done any of this myself.

 

Remember one thing - the loco is almost working correctly. As you start adjusting, I'd expect it won't take much before it either starts to get better or get worse

 

if you are going the wrong way. So just be methodical in what you do and you should get a result. And given my theory says you have too much back EMF leading to overcompensation, I'd be looking to reduce values for a start and see how that goes. If it happens

 

to get worse,then try the other way.