point switching problem with lenz ls150

[fac]

Installed lenz ls150 with e-link and railmaster worked first time switching points. However when setting routes I experienced point switching failures (intermittent) differing points. I discovered that the ls150 only appeared to switch on for 10ms not

 

the minimum 100 ms.? (resetting ls150 still retains 10ms)

 

I have been unable to program the ls150 timing via the Hornby drop down menu, as having changed the point address when requested does nothing on the timer state regardless of address value.(the

 

ls150 led, follows manufacturers data)

 

This makes me ask how are the decoder addresses different from the train addresses given they are the same value? (Point address at 3 train address at 3). And has anyone successfully programmed the timing of the

 

LS150 with railmaster and e-link?

[Fishmanoz]

All DCC controllers recognise locos separately to accessory decoders and there is no problem with duplicated IDs between them.

 

And sounds like your decoder is faulty to me as 100mSec is supposed to be the minimum pulse.

[fac]

A second decoder displays the same problem. Has anyone managed to alter the timing on a railmaster e link system , and if so how did they send the updated address required for timer update to the ls150. Also the relays present a clean click when operable,

 

is this normal with a/c operation or should there be a slight buzz.(the o gauge I noted on u tube were a buzz).

Any clue will do.

[Fishmanoz]

Time to email RM Support from within the Help window of RM and hope they have done some testing with this decoder.

[fac]

Have emailed Hornby for information on programming ls150 timer, as railmaster contains lenz ls150 in dropdown accessory menu there needs to be some description of programming. I expect I have done it correctly as I have sequenced completely through lenz

 

programming set up. My problem could be due to faulty ls150 (they both have the same build date) or otherwise my a/c supply has damaged them but I have read that people are running them off 18v and I have 17.5v off load. Also it would be strange that only

 

the timers were damaged, but I am trying to get them tested out by a supplier, if anyone is offering let me know , I will cover costs obviously. .

[Rog RJ]

You are using an ac (alternating current) power supply for the LS150s aren't you? According to the manual, "Do not use a DC supply as this can damage the LS150."

[fac]

No it is an a/c supply and all ls150 functions except the timer. Fortunately I have found a supplier who will check them out for me, will post results of problem to assist anyone else with similar problem.

[Fishmanoz]

You say you have emailed Hornby. You do realise RM Support is not Hornby or HCC as such but the RM sub-contractor? They are ones who should know about this stuff, not HCC who can only refer it back to them. And emailing out of the RM Help window also sends

 

them your log.txt file so they can see what you have been doing.

[fac]

Thanks for the info, my garage set up computer is not linked to internet. I will sort out a connection and do as you suggest. I believed I was purchasing a turn key solution? silly me.

[fac]

The ls150 checked out O.K on lenz system. Although I was told one was set at 10 seconds. As this is what I had set it to I now know railmaster can program them.

On their return I fitted a 4.7 ohm resistor between the transformer and live input and

 

Hornby point motors now had the correct a/c waveform applied on switching. It would appear that the Hornby system sends out a 100 ms timed input when operated off the layout screen and a fast trigger pulse only when operated from the accessory drop down menu.

When

 

fitted to my layout I had two peco l10 in parallel on changeover tracks as their higher resistance then reduced to that of the Hornby.

While the ls150 operated. The switching was erratic due to the added resistance from the wiring. I reduced the 4.7 to

 

2.2 ohm and the points were reliable functional (other than a single Hornby which sent the ls150 channel into current limit.) Therefore I can use the ls150 but I may have to tune the resistance of the points/wiring for reliable operation.

Does anyone else

 

use these modules and what is their experience?

[Fishmanoz]

Fac, you are the first to be using this in at least the last 12 months, maybe longer. Others are using a range of brands that are compatible and have a range of ease of use, from the dead simple learn mode programming types to something like the Switchpilot

 

which took ages before anyone got them to work.

[fac]

The problem is the ls150 have a 3a maximum current which appears to be close to the minimum required (for the points I am using) to switch cleanly. They do function reliably close to 3A but given wiring considerations there is a necessity to trim resistance

 

value for each ls150 output making things non standard. Trying a dcc compatible cdu system which I expect will give better operation and standard wiring. (my cabling to the points is higher capacity than what appears to be very fine connection leads.)

 

 

I chose the ls150 because the Hornby was not available and I liked the fact that they used a separate supply. While point manufacturers state voltage operation requirements, they do not appear to state the current required. I assumed 1A would be sufficient.

 

If only the true specifications were supplied. When I measured a coil at 2 ohm resistance I expect the impedance is in the same order. At 12V dc that means 6A but for what timing? At 16v a/c that is 8a but for what timed period? Answers on a postcard to......................................Still

 

I have learnt a lot.

The major input of purchase criteria was that Hornby have them listed on their pull down menu suggesting they are compatible and proven working with their points which is why I think it must be me.

[Fishmanoz]

Fac, you will have noticed then that there a number of other brands on the pull down menu and the system works with more that aren't listed. This is not surprising as all decoders must comply with the same NMRA spec. However, some work only with solenoid

 

style points and others only with continuous motors.

 

Brands that you will find covered in some detail in these forums, some under DCC and some under RM, include ESU, DCC Concepts, Traintronics and Kato. Some like the 8247 must be programmed to the

 

address and pulse length you want on the programming track. Others have a switch that you can change to put them in learn mode and they program themselves to match the address of any point you throw while they are in this mode. The latter types are the simpler

 

ones to use.

 

Just on CDUs, you cannot add an external CDU to these decoders. All of those designed to throw solenoid point motors have their own internal CDU, they can't operate without one. Consequently, they draw little current on a continuous basis

 

even when their CDU is recharging, then produce a high current burst at near supply volts when they are throwing a point. Most produce enough current to throw 2 points st once reliably, except if you are using SEEP point motors that need more current then

 

others.

 

As for any advantage from running from a separate supply, this will only be the case if you have lots of locos moving st once such that you are using most of the available current for them and have little left over for accessories. If this

 

is not the case, and given the low continuous current needs of accessory decoders, separate supply just means you need more equipment and have added wiring complication. Personally, I can't see that I will ever need it, hence I will avoid decoders that only

 

operate with a separate supply. Most that have allowance for a separate supply have it only as an option to track supply anyway, so you can use either.

[fac]

Thank you for your clarification, I believe the surface mount point motors use different windings to enable size reduction for surface mount. I suspect that if I had used under mounted motors the coil resistance would have been greater and probably worked

 

with my ls150. The fact that they functioned at 70% actuation with a 10mS pulse (one positive cycle of 50hz) suggests a cdu is a better option for surface mounted points as the ls150 is limited on current by fact of its pre-set current limit.

[Fishmanoz]

People on here have been able to throw surface mount points motors with a range of decoders. They operate very much the same as the under board type. Default pulse length is 100mSec though and can go a little longer. There's no 50 Hz involved as the alternating

 

supply is first bridge rectified then used to charge the capacitor in the CDU. The current burst on discharge cannot be AC out of a charged capacitor.

[fac]

The true answer is that while the decoders state that they are nrma compatible the hardware in this case point motors have no actual specification, therefore they might work with some encoders and not others. This is not at all helpfull to anyone starting up who believe nrma compatible applies to hardware as well as software. One manufacturer now states that certain point motors are suitable for european decoders as they are desighned with higher resistance coils to allow smaller current operation. I would suggest to Hornby that perhaps they would like to add recommended encoders on their point motor packaging, if only their own. My problem arose because i was unable to purchase Hornby encoders due to non availability.It is of little use having a standard if the hardware does not comply or can not be matched to the requirement.

[Rab the Ranter]

Read  with interest  previous comments  on LS 150.  I am having problems  getting the LS 150  to actually drive  Peco L11  Surface /Side  Mounted Point Motors  with enough force to actually switch Peco Points.

I  have  managed to  manually program the LS 150  outputs  using  the Elite  and  get  a   Peco point  motor to  work when its not in position  on the track. But when I  assemble it  to the point tie bar  on the track and secure it with track pins then give a command to switch the point   the  PM gets the signal OK but  it  cannot  switch the point.

The LS 150 is wired as follows: Track Output from Elite  wired to  JK  Input  on  LS150  ( ie command link).  Boost Output of Elite  16 VAC wired to  Transformer Input on LS 150.

I can  program   and  control   the LS 150  using  the Elite  but  I  don't think you can drive a LS 150  from the Elite.   

I think the problem is that the Output from the Elite Boost is not strong enough  and that I may need to  wire up  an External Transformer  to the LS 150 . The LS 150 Instruction Manual  recommends the   Lenz   TR 100   45 VA  Transformer which adds another £45 to  the cost and  makes the  Hornby Decoder a better cost option  but you can't get them until end of October.

Anyone tried to use the LS150  using the Elite  for both data and power feed?

Any suggestions will be gratefully received

Rab

[RDS]

Some people have had problems with points being fastened down too tight and this has resulted in the same issues that you are describing, i.e. - works OK until fastened down.

[Rog RJ]

You should not use the boost output of the Elite for anything other than the connection to a booster.  It isn't designed to provide power, it's just a data supply to feed a booster.