RDS Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 PJAs you know I haven't got any signals but the times when I have had problems with certain things working OK, but not within programs, is because the timing is too quick and RM is still tied up with a previous program command.This may not be the case for your signals but usually just adding another second or (more) in the program to the command that doesn't work, has solved problems for me. Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Hi RDS,I think you meant to address this one to me, rather than PJ. I hear what you are saying, but, you know me I like to create test programs to try things out. I created a program which changed the signal through its aspect cycle of r, y, yy, g at 10 second intervals, the I wrapped around these commands a Repeat .... End Repeat pair so that I could go and watch the signal closely. I then copied and amended this program so that I had the identical program for each of the six signals. These are the addresses showing which are working or not:200 not working210 working220 not working230 working300 not working310 workingSome pattern, eh - could it be that it only works if the middle digit of the address is odd ? :-)Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Interesting, thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDS Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 RayYes sorry - but then again I would not have sent it if I had realised it was you because you are probably the RM program leader on here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Hello againWe just keep on trying and hoping things will fall in to place.Hornby Guide page 85 says 'There are up to 13 sequences for each signal' I wish we knew what these were by a list or more examples. Anyway I have been playing and got some things to work (whilst others don't) but, I thought I would share it with everyone as it may just make one of you see something I haven't.We are working on the 3 Aspect Signal, Home, with Right Hand Route indicator feather.Taking what Ray had suggested we got part of the signal to work, thank you Ray. Then I thought, somehow we have to turn the fethers on and off so that would be port 175, after a few attempts this is what I programmed.174 - G173 - G174 - R173 - R175 - G174 - G175 - RThen I tested to see what happened. I hope this looks right...(Click by Click on the signal in RM)4 columns --- first 2 what I see on the Layout ---- last 2 what I see in RMSIGNAL --- FEATHER ---{}--- SIGNAL --- FEATHERRed --------- Off -------------{}--- Red -------- OffYellow ------ ON ------------{}--- Yellow ---- OffThis click no change, cont with next clickYellow ------ Off ------------{}--- Yellow ----- OffGreen ------- Off -----------{}--- Yellow ----- OffGreen ------- YES ---------{}--- Yellow ----- OffGreen ------- YES ---------{}--- Green ----- ONBack to Red with no featherPutting that in order, we have a bit of an order although not right yet.Red, then yellow with feather, nothing click, yellow without feather, green without feather, green with feather (wrong colour in RM), green with feather correct then back to red.It's a brain teaser, do I get £200 for passing go or go to jail for still not getting it right?Any suggestions?PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 What pattern if any do you get if you convert that lot to binary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Good thinking, Fishy. The ones which are working have 2 in them (i.e. 2 to the power of 1). The ones which aren't working don't have this bit set. :-) Another way of saying this is that those which are exactly divisible by 4 are not working, those that aren't divisible exactly by 4, are working.It can't be that surely ???Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 So bit 1 is 1. What about commonalities in other bits or are they all different across the group?And I have no idea why that might be significant, none at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi everyoneI would like to be clear in my thoughts of a few items at this stage before getting to far down a wrong track. There are two items I wish to put here for discussion, and will enter them as two separate items on the thread so as not to overlap. Hopefully the questions and answers will help others as well.SIGNALS order of colours, which colours to program and overlapping risk.We know the sequence of lights on signals is R, Y, YY, G down the line, left or right, clock wise or anti-clockwise, as we view on the layout plan, each signal changing in turn and on the RM layout they perform as they should from any signal. (not yet in the layout but RM is looking into this)We also know the signal changes to Red as a train passes it and nothing else changes until the back of the train/tender or the last carriage pass that same signal. Once the train/tender or last carriage passes the signal the previous signal changes to Y the one before it to YY and the one before it to G. (assuming another train further down the line doesn't enter a previous block.From this we know that the Red light is not in the sequence of lights other that the task it performs of a train passing the signal and entering the next block in its travels.This leaves us, as I see it, (manual operation until loco detection) we click a signal as a train passes it to send it to red (we may at this time have to step through the sequence but in the next update HRMS is to add to the software the ability to go straight to red)When the train/tender passes the red signal we then click the previous signal to make it Y, which in turn sets this previous signal and the two before it to Y, YY, G. So when it comes to programming signals, we do not need to program the Red, only the Y, YY, G do you agree?The problem here is, a layout with a small number of blocks, say 4, signal A=Red set as train passes, Signal B set to Y as last carriage passes the first Red signal, and in turn changes signal C to YY and D to G. That all seems logical but, the train may have passed signal D and turned it Red so when the carriages pass the initial signal A and B, C, D are changes automatically, therefore D which was Red for the train entering the block is now changed back to Green?PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi PJ,Most of what you have said here I would agree with. However, I would question this:-"This leaves us, as I see it, (manual operation until loco detection) we click a signal as a train passes it to send it to red (we may at this time have to step through the sequence but in the next update HRMS is to add to the software the ability to go straight to red)"Have HRMS actually said this? If you are controlling things from a program, you CAN already switch a TrainTech 4-aspect signal directly from y to r. However, with a single icon on the layout diagram, all you can do is click it repeatedly to step it through the sequence until red is reached. For HRMS to change this way of working, they would have to change the icon so that each signal aspect is sensitive to the mouse, so that the signal will be changed to the colour aspect clicked (or the feather if this was made sensitive too).Your last paragraph sums up how complex multi-aspect signalling can become.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi RayTaken from... 3 Oct 2014 - Page 7 this thread RM said.....Programs give you complete control over points and signals and there are times when you don't want to have relays switching, which is why the program addresses only the point in question. Similarly, only within programs can you specify directly a multi-aspect signal setting, whereas on the track plan you have to cycle through them by touching them (although there will be a helpful facility in the next update to set red directly).We can look at ways of extending the point firing in program to include or exclude switching other points/signals but we cannot force that at this time. Much safer to switch only the point in question.PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi RayTaking my comments above at 12:07Do you think it best that we only program Y, YY & G signals back down the line and leave the Red out as this is controlled separately by the click when a train passes the signal to enter the next block?Until we have loco detection this gives us, manually, two clicks (min), per train, per signal, subject to the position of the train and the back of it or last carriage. Unless we use programs? ErmmmmPJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi againThis is my second item listed for discussion and comments2 - SIGNALS with ROUTE INDICATOR FEATHERSMy question here is based on the above. Do we program directional route indicators (RI) in the signal programming or the points programming?I assume programmed in the signal but it creates as shown in the message yesterday, more variants. R, Y, Y with (RI), YY, YY with (RI), G, G with (RI)I am wondering about the variants as mentioned above can these be individually set in programming routes? A signal is assigned to say Decoder Port 173, which includes 173, 174 & 175 Ports in the setting up and (RI's) are switched on and off with 175. How would we set these in routes?This also raises another consideration.When programming Y, YY, G back down the line in sequence from the signals, the signal with the (RI) may be Signal C, but as the train and carriages pass signal A, signal B then changes B, C & D at this stage it should 'switch off' the (RI) for all signals down the line as it is only giving sequence for the main line, the line it is on, not branch lines.Has anyone tested this? How do we program to switch off (RI's) and what comments do you have. I have tried setting up main line and branch in the program set up in signals, in doing so it shows the routes in the top right hand box in the set up section. When I save this should it not show routes in the top right hand box on the main layout screen?PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 When experimenting with the "other point/signal" field on 4-aspect signals a week or two ago, I came to the conclusion that I would only need to set two of these on each signal as follows:-single yellow set previous signal to double yellowdouble yellow set previous signal to greenI stopped thinking about it when I was told by HRMS that these settings are ignored if the signal with these parameters set is being operated from within a program.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi RayCan I ask you about programs in SignalsI have tried setting up main line and branch in the program set up in signals, in doing so it shows the routes in the top right hand box in the set up design screen section, as detailed in the RM Guide page 87 para 2.When I save this, should it not show routes in the top right hand box on the main layout screen? If not how do we access the routes to choose them?PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi PJ,I've just tried a route of my own (I don't usually use them), and you are correct - the routes box didn't appear. Then I set up a second route. Then it appeared with two entries, but the box was deep enough to hold about 10 entries.By the way, when I talk about programs, I mean the ones you use to run the trains, not the routes you can configure in points and signals. If you want to set up a small program just to change the signals, I can talk you through it on RMW if you like.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hello RayPara-1 --- the route appears in the box when you click the next item down, add another click next space down it then adds that too. BUT ONLY in the signal set up section. I expected after saving that it would maybe show in Routes in the front page but it doesn't.I then thought, after saving maybe it shows a list to bring up on another signal in the signal set up area but it doesn'tHRMS I think there is a problem here, please confirm. Para-2 --- I have attempted to set up a program just to alter a signal (main program section), I allowed 5 seconds between stages. e.g. 125 3 Aspect signal5 secs - Signal - Controller A Port 125 - Clear10 secs - Signal - Controller A Port 125 - Yellow15 secs - Signal - Controller A Port 125 - Clear20 secs - Signal - Controller A Port 125 - StopIt worked fine on playbackI then tried it on Port 102 for the 4 aspect with feather putting in the double yellowIt worked fine on playbackI then tried in with a signal with a directional indicator/feather - How do we program/code a route indicator feather???PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Hi PJ,1. After saving the layout, did you exit / reload RM ? I know it shouldn't be necessary but worth a try.2. You may need to try to address the feather port directly e.g.25 secs - Signal - Controller A Port 127 - Clear30 secs - Signal - Controller A Port 127 - StopIt may not allow you, because this address won't be present in the dropdown list. If it won't let you alter one of the dropdown items to 127, then all I can suggest is adding another icon to the layout as a 2-aspect signal attached to a Hornby R8247 decoder with an address of 127. This will put 127 into the dropdown list in the program editor.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hello RayThanks for your suggestions, I tried port 173 (which is the 3 aspect with RI) but no luck.I removed all the extra commands discussed the ther day in the 3 Aspect + RI signal set up to bring it back to the initial 4 settings you suggested but still nothing. I tried calling port 175 as you have suggested, which is for the feather but RM calls the main port 173 so I didn't expect it to work anyway. To be fair, I don't think I can test these until I know they work correctly first, so best wait until HRMS has the signals and SC1 and confirm the set up.I do have my concerns for signals with RI's they should be llisted in the program section as an option (I think), every other option is in there R,Y,YY,G and flashing, but no RI's, and there is no real guidance how to set signals up with RI's. A 2 aspect + RI is no problem it used the same ports as a 4 aspect. I can't help but feel RM is not ready for them yet, I hope I am wrong.Adding RI control in the main programs section would be the easiest way for HRMS to add them, as it also over rides the signal sequence, even if only intially.The program setting and say signal Y (or YY or G) and give another command for the RI, or they can incorporate the Y+RI, YY+RI, G+RI options in the drop down menu which would be better.PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Good morning PJ,You are right in that RM KNOWS the signal has a base address of 173, BUT behind the scenes, when you ask RM to change to, say, yellow from red, either by clicking the icon on the layout diagram or by selecting "single yellow" in the program command, it will be sending a message to port 174, which controls the yellow aspect(s) on the signal. So I reckon if you can get RM to send out a message to port 175 (the feather) then the signal will be "listening" on that address and should change the feather accordingly. But it may be you need to set up an extra "dummy" icon, as I suggested, as a 2-aspect non-feather attached to a Hornby R8247 decoder with an address of 175 and a two item sequence of green and red. Clicking on this icon on the layout diagram should change the feather. The 175 address should become available in the program editor and you can use clear and stop commands in the program to toggle the feather on and off.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hello RayIt doesn't work correctly.I have 3 aspect with RI set [173] 174-G, 173-G, 174-R, 173-R anda 2 aspect [173] 175-R, 175-GR is correct - layout, screen 3A+, 2AY is correct - layout, screen 3A+, 2AI can switch RI on and off from 2A signal Then the click to step a stage, following this is where things go wrong and sequences get mixed PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The 2-aspect should have a base address of 175, should be no mention of 173 therein.Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hello RayI tried it with 175 first and it didn't work.Looking back at my notes for the trial, I had all the extra codes in as well so they were causing the conflict. When it didn't work I tried 173 as mentioned but after removing them failed to re-check using 175. Sorry about that.Tested with 175 on 2A, just off the edge of the layout near the 173 signal and it works.Thank you, it will do till we get confirmation how to set up the 3A + RI correctly. PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ_model_trains Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hello RaySlight modification and updateI have now set up and put back along side at 45 degrees to each other to save conflicts being close to each other.a 3 aspect [173] 174-G, 173-G, 174-R, 173-R anda 2 aspect Home with RI [175] 175-R, 175-GResult:Click 3A Red = RedClick 3A Yellow = Yellow>>>>> Click 2A Distance with RI = Yellow on 3A and (RI = ON Green or OFF Red)Click 3A again - no changeClick 3A Green = Green >>>>> Click 2A Distance with RI = Green on 3A and (RI = ON Green or OFF Red)Click 3A back to Red (RI = OFF)2 Aspect placed just off the layout to side of th 3A which is left of an inner loopI can also say to 171 signal further up the line... (Note: these are only 3 aspect signals)Red - 173 = Y, Yellow - 173 = G, Green - 173 = YellowYellow - 175 = Red & Green - 175 = Red (Which turns off the RI)PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St1ngr4y Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hi PJ,In this last part, why do have in 171...Green - 173 = Yellow?Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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