V2's allocated to the Southern Region

[mortehoe]

Hi Guys,
I'm having problems trying to find the V2's borrowed by the Southern Region when the Merchant Navies were out of service due to axle failure. I have a picture of one on the A.C.E at Waterloo, being a black and white shot I cannot tell if she

is in black or green ( it seems to be black ).
For the record I don't like the V2 in black.
I have trawled the net, mention is made of their loan but I cannot find the numbers of the engines actually loaned. While we are at it does anybody know when

the last Maroon/Crimson Lake Duchess was with drawn, again the net is not very forth coming. Rumor has it one was seen on the Chessington branch on a coal train in the very early 60's. I have seen a B&W picture of a Duchess at Clapham Junction on a coal train

but with no date. Any takers.

[Bulleidboy]

This is the only information I could find - no pictures -

"On 12th May 1953 all the Merchant Navy Pacifics were withdrawn from service after a driving axle fractured on No. 35020 Bibby Line. Six LNER Class V2, some Class B1 and other engines were

loaned to the Southern Region as temporary replacements".

[LordVader]

The August - September issue of steam magazine has a photo (sounds like the same one you have) of Green Arrow in early BR crest and by the looks of things no name plates at Waterloo with the atlantic coast express 'Brits' where also used to cover for the

'navys'. It was in 1953 this replacement took place so I think all V2's would have been black as the late BR crest wasn't introduced until 1956.

As for the Duchess they where all withdrawn by 1964 and the ones that remained in September 64 where given

a yellow diagonal stripe on the cab side to say they where not allowed to work under the overheads south of Crewe. I do recall seeing a colour photo of a Maroon Duchess with said stripe but which one it was I'm no sure but I think it concludes the Maroon ones

ran up to then. I hope that helps.

[LCDR]

In May 1953 V2 2-6-2s 60893, 60896, 60908, 60916, 60917, 60928 were transferred on loan to Nine Elms, for two months. At the same time LMS 5MT 4-6-0 45051, 45061, 45130, 45216, 45222, 45223, 45350, BR 5MT 4-6-0 73003, 73015, and 73017 joined them.
Britannia

Pacifics 70017 & 70023 went to Salisbury, 70024, 70028, & 70029 went to Exmouth Junction 70034 went to Stewarts Lane and 70030 went to Dover.
B1 4-6-0s 61015, 61041, 61050, 61109, 61133, 61138, 61148, 61192, 61219, 61273, 61274, 61329, 61338 & 61354 also

went to Stewarts Lane.
The loaned locomotives were progressively returned to their hiome depots as the Bulleid Pacifics passed the Ultrasonic tests of the axles and returned to traffic.

In 1948 there were interchanges between regions to see how

different classes compared. On the Southern 60022 Mallard and 60033 Seagull worked out of Waterloo to Exeter, as did Royal Scot 46154 The Hussar and Princess Coronation 46236 City of Bradford. Southern engines (Merchant Navy and West Country classes) worked

trains on all other regions, and aquitted themselves very well.

There have been many railtours with unusual motive power out of Waterloo, and over the SR Western section. The best of all was Caledonian No. 123 double headed with T9 120, on the Blue

Belle to Haywards Heath, for a connection to the Bluebell railway in 1963.

Cross London Goods services, troop trains and Summer excursions would also guarantee a few foreign locomotives on to Southern territory. Black 5s and B1s frequently made it to

Margate, Hastings and Brighton. Royal Scots worked oil trains to and from Eastleigh. 'City of Truro' was a regular visitor to Southampton on ordinary trains from Didcot.

You never quite knew what was likely to turn up.

[Postman Prat]

Hi

I thought LC&DR would have 'Chapter & Verse'on which V2s, B1s etc covered for the Merchant Navies. The V2s would have all been in lined black as the green livery came in (1956)shortly before the new crest was adopted.

The last Maroon

Duchess to remain in service was no 46256 Sir William A Stanier FRS which remained in service for a couple of weeks after the remaining engines were withdrawn (to work a railtour, I understand). If you want to know which of the 'ordinary' Duchesses, in maroon,

lasted to the end of the class come back on here and I MAY be able to help you in a couple of days.

[mortehoe]

LC&DR said:

In May 1953 V2 2-6-2s 60893, 60896, 60908, 60916, 60917, 60928 were transferred on loan to Nine Elms, for two months. At the same time LMS 5MT 4-6-0 45051, 45061, 45130, 45216, 45222, 45223, 45350, BR 5MT 4-6-0 73003, 73015, and

73017 joined them.
Britannia Pacifics 70017 & 70023 went to Salisbury, 70024, 70028, & 70029 went to Exmouth Junction 70034 went to Stewarts Lane and 70030 went to Dover.
B1 4-6-0s 61015, 61041, 61050, 61109, 61133, 61138, 61148, 61192, 61219, 61273,

61274, 61329, 61338 & 61354 also went to Stewarts Lane.
The loaned locomotives were progressively returned to their hiome depots as the Bulleid Pacifics passed the Ultrasonic tests of the axles and returned to traffic.

In 1948 there were interchanges

between regions to see how different classes compared. On the Southern 60022 Mallard and 60033 Seagull worked out of Waterloo to Exeter, as did Royal Scot 46154 The Hussar and Princess Coronation 46236 City of Bradford. Southern engines (Merchant Navy and

West Country classes) worked trains on all other regions, and aquitted themselves very well.

There have been many railtours with unusual motive power out of Waterloo, and over the SR Western section. The best of all was Caledonian No. 123 double headed

with T9 120, on the Blue Belle to Haywards Heath, for a connection to the Bluebell railway in 1963.

Cross London Goods services, troop trains and Summer excursions would also guarantee a few foreign locomotives on to Southern territory. Black 5s and

B1s frequently made it to Margate, Hastings and Brighton. Royal Scots worked oil trains to and from Eastleigh. 'City of Truro' was a regular visitor to Southampton on ordinary trains from Didcot.

You never quite knew what was likely to turn up.

[mortehoe]

You Sir are a Gentleman. Being an S&D fan I intend to have the odd Black Five, and the Royal Scot Hussar, is on the list as is City of Bradford ( Trouble is I will have to keep my eyes open for two WD tenders ). At least now I know the rest of the V2's

involved. Perhaps I could have Mallard parked up due to her big end failure during the trials.

Thanks for the info.

[LCDR]

B1 61313 failed and sat at the back of Redhill shed for many weeks. It was a frequently photographed 'celebrity' there was a 'Hall' there too. The Reading to Redhill line could also be counted to produce surprises in steam days, it was one of the few parts

of the Southern near London where Western Region locos were seen frequently working SR trains. (It happened a lot west of Exeter of course, and SR locos on WR trains too)

[Postman Prat]

Hi
Hi Mortehoe

I don't know who you were calling a Gent, me or LC&DR. If it was me, that's the first time in years. Press on..........

Duchess withdrawal and colours. The following were withdrawn in the great Duchess extermination of September

1964

46225 Maroon
46226 M
46228 M
46235 Green
46237 G
46238 M
46239 G
46240 M
46241 G
46243 M
46244 M
46245 M
46248 M
46250 G
46251 M
46254 M
46255 G

The last one of all was 46256 Sir William A

Stanier FRS which was withdrawn early October 1964

Hope this is of use

[LCDR]

How were the mighty fallen? The last 8Ps in regular main line work were the MNs of course, but there was a proposal to transfer the Princess Coronations to the Southern to help them out in 1964. Sadly it came to naught, but it would have been a grand sight

seeing them hurtling effortlessly along the SW main line. Still I have my memories of them blasting up Shap and leaning hard into the curve through Penrith - those were the days!! My best run was behind 46255 from Euston to Lancaster on the 'Lakes Express'.

I stood all the way with my head out of the window, smuts and all. Those were grand days.

[Postman Prat]

Hi LC&DR

The reason the Duchesses didn't come south were, so we're told, clearances in the Southampton area, notably the Northam Curve (Just by where the SWT Northam depot is now). Funny, it didn't stop Duchess of Sutherland a couple of years ago

and I don't think anything could have been done about those clearances in the 40+ years that had elapsed, (I think to do anything there you'd have to lift the 1st radius curved tracks and put down 2nd radius. Would also involve major civil engineering re-design.)

[LCDR]

Actually there were works carried out a number of years ago in the Southampton area to clear the route for 8ft 6in containers to Millbrook, this may have enabled for a greater number of locomotives. Whether this eased clearances in the Northam area I do

not know, but certainly the tunnel was rebuilt.

[Postman Prat]

Hi LC&DR

The works that you are referring to have only just been completed and mainly revolved around height, similarly a few years ago, works were carried out. The problem re the Duchess were, I beleive, relating to length and overhang going outside

the loading gauge rather than height.

Long time ago now, can any of us be 100% certain of our facts. A lot of us are at the age where memory plays tricks. You must remember...........oh yes, there's a flaw in that, isn't there?

[SkyCube]

LC&DR said:

How were the mighty fallen? The last 8Ps in regular main line work were the MNs of course, but there was a proposal to transfer the Princess Coronations to the Southern to help them out in 1964. Sadly it came to naught, but it

would have been a grand sight seeing them hurtling effortlessly along the SW main line. Still I have my memories of them blasting up Shap and leaning hard into the curve through Penrith - those were the days!! My best run was behind 46255 from Euston to Lancaster

on the 'Lakes Express'. I stood all the way with my head out of the window, smuts and all. Those were grand days.

Sometimes, I really wish I could have lived in the days of steam!

[LCDR]

Sky cube - It was a great time to be a school kid. In those days our parents were not paranoid about 'stranger-danger', and were happy to let us pack up our army surplus ammo pouch with fish paste sandwiches (wrapped in greaseproof paper), Jubbly, Lyons

individual fruit pie, note book, ten assorted pens and pencils, and Ian Allan ABC and then trot off to the local station and buy a half day return to a popular junction to spend the day 'spotting'. As I lived near London the best way to get about was a Red

Rover which gave unlimited travel on Central area 'buses and trolleybuses all day for about two bob (10p). Brave kids would 'bunk' sheds to get numbers, timid ones would hang about at platform ends and wait and see what turned up. In those days if you didn't

have a travel ticket you needed a platform ticket priced at 1d (1/2p). Some stations were friendly, but at others the staff disliked spotters and would harass us. In hindsight I can understand their dislike, the platform ends were often full of kids, and some

did what kids would do, fighting, and messing about generally. How none ever fell off the platform under the wheels of a passing express I shall never know but to the best of my knowledge we never lost anyone.
Spotting was very competitive, kids would boast

about rare 'cops' and there was a undercurrent of oneupmanship if you had a relative who worked on the railway.
The 'uniform' for a spotter (and do not believe what the gutter press say about anoraks)was a school cap, blazer, jumper and short trousers (most

of us were under 13 remember). In summer we wore sandals and socks, in winter it was wellies. For wet weather most of us has knee length raincoats. Not an anorak in sight!
Steam was still 'King' right up until about 1962. There were a few 'bug boxes' about

(diesel railcars) but these were limited to certain areas. After 1962 the decline of steam was noticeable.

Yes it was a great time, except of course you had to go to school Monday to Friday.

[Postman Prat]

Believe him, Skycube. That's exactly as it was.

He did London. From Newcastle a day return to Carlisle or York. Leave home at about 07.30 and return anytime after 2000

Oh, to be young again!!!

[mortehoe]

Skycube, it was great, I caught the last years of steam in the London area, the infant school I attended was adjacent to the Chessington Branch. Although third rail from day one, the coal yard (Charringtons) was served by steam right till the end. The

one train that sticks in my mind was an unrebuilt Battle of Britain, on a break down train, as she passed the school yard, the driver hit the whistle, and the whole school erupted.

It wasn't just steam, we still had the earlier Southern Electrics,

be leave it or not they had character. On the road, even the cars, lorries and buses had character.
I can remember, that United Dairies still had a chain driven Scammell tractor unit running around Ewell in the early 1960's ( Mind you a firm on the Trafford

Park estate in Manchester had half their fleet as chain drive as late as 1972 ).
The thing that really galls me, if the modernisation plan had been adhered to, steam would have been phased a lot later, the year 2000, was the original target. A slow gradual

phase out and not the whole sale needless slaughter that occurred, some of the standards were 8 YEARS YOUNG.