Yelrow Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Hi, day for clever things, or so i thought. Opened tender, located blank plug, carefully removed, noting pin 1, inserted hornby decoder, replaced, put on prog track, where it read beautifully. Then noticed that cv1 was 255, as were all of them. Undaunted, i changed cv1 to my new 006. asked it to write, whereupon, it said thanks, but no thanks, and returned to 255. So much for being clever. Followed instructions, (yes, i really did ) to the letter. So . guys, what is my un-deliberate mistake. thanks, johnl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 John, 255 means that is actually not reading at all. I suggest you first put it back on the track and see if it runs on default 03, always a good thing to try first when fitting decoders. Possible problems - dirty track, dirty wheels, poor pickup tension onto wheels, faulty decoder. Have you plugged it in properly? Have you pushed it too der through so it is shorting at the back. Is it really in the right way round (should still run/read/write the wrong way round). Do you have another decoder to try - swap one out of another loco? Dont forget to try some downward pressure on the programming track. Enough random thoughts? Any luck with any of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I take it John, that this was with your new Elite / RailMaster set up rather than your old e-link / Railmaster set up. Although I have not had any issues writing loco CV's with my Elite / RailMaster set up, I have had issues reading them. I too have seen all my CV's read as 255 on certain decoders..It is possible the write function worked and the decoder was set as 006 as you intended, but it was only the read back afterwards that failed and still displayed 255. In my case I was changing sound volumes. The write function did actually work and the volumes were amended even though the CV read back still read 255..My workaround was to disconnect the wires connected to my Elite main track output spring connectors, leaving just the programming track connected. I then found all my CV's read correctly e.g. they didn't now all give a value of 255, but returned the various values as expected..I suggest you try disconnecting your Elite track output and try reading and writing your new decoder again. I am fairly confident that you will get success with the main track output disconnected..Chris.PS - I have reported this "Read all CVs as 255" issue twice now through the RM support system, but so far no fix other than my self-discovered work-around documented above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Fishmann, just a point of curiosity on my part. Me being nosey. Your message above timed 16:10 UK BST (GMT+1). I'm assuming, maybe incorrectly, that you're in OZ. Isn't it the middle of the night there? Are you an insomniac like me?Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yes, yes, and apparently yes Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Better try it running on 03 and 06 from Chris's suggestion John. And another possible fault to add to your list John - faulty Elite programming output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Fishy, cant you sleep, Chris, thanks tried that, no joy, so fitted my second decoder in class 31 diesel, took out track wires, and it worked. Removed eirst decoder, made sure it was round right way, but have a question before i try again. Can i just put tender with decoder on track, or do l need to plug it all back again. thanks. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Re: Tender only with decoder on program track. I think so, but not sure. I only have one A4 with decoder in the tender. There are 4 wires connecting my tender to loco. Two wires for the loco motor and two wires for the loco pickups. I believe the tender has its own additional pickups. I have only read and written CVs to this loco with it sitting complete on my programming track. Suggest try it and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 This has happened to me in the past.I wrote the value 48 to CV 8, which happens to be the manufactures ID number assigned to Hornby.If that fails to work, try resetting the decoder by writing 8 to CV 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 John,Just for reference. Hornby do a tender plug extraction tool X6468 for removing the tiny white plug from the tender. Saves risking the wires breaking when being pulled. Currently OOS with Hornby, but I found it readily available elsewhere..https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/extractor-tool-for-steam-loco-tender-plug.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Chrissaf, Hi, have 2 questions for you. 1), swapped my problem decoder , and now Orton hall. is superb, on DCC, but wont run on dc. The decoder that worked is a hornby sale one, that only has about 5 cv number in it, all the rest are blank. Its no problem, as i have another one coming for DC, but wondered if there was a solution, and 2), going back to my Tutntable, and your reverse loop thingme, whose no you gave me, and i bought. I have disconnected track totally, from TT, and sorta made it into its own layout, with 18 exits, from tt. When i test with a meter the 18 tracks are fine, but the bridge, is reversed, or vice vers. Rather than a lot of rewiring, can i insert your Thingme, and if , where do i connect it. Sorry to be a pain, but i know, like fishy, you like these little challanges john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 John,Regarding question 1 - I would think that is probably a CV29 configuration issue. Read the current value of CV29. If it is 2, then DC support is not set, then make it 6 for 128 speed steps + DC operation. See web site below for details:http://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/cv29%20calculator.htm.Regarding question 2 - I'll do a drawing it will be easier. Look back later to see if it has been moderated.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Chrissaf, thanks, thought it was cv29, will read link. Drawing would be good. Cant bear the thought of lying upside down and changing 36 wires. This is obviously my original melting points solution. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 John,Drawing as promised. Don't be too concerned about trying to match your BUS polarities to my drawing. I've only shown them conceptionally. The DFJ003 will handle any DCC polarity anomalies..The main things to note are:.That the rotating bridge track MUST be electrically isolated from all the other tracks, including the input track.The polarity of the DCC connections made to the DFJ003 are not important (they can be either way round).The Link marked A on the drawing must be fitted (bridging the two pin contacts) to configure the DFJ003 as an Auto-Reverser.The Links marked B on the drawing are not fitted (the pins are left un-connected). This sets the trigger current to 1.7 amps (nominally termed 2 amps by Tam Valley).Your DCC BUS supply must be via your Hornby Elite 4 amp power supply as the e-link 1 amp power supply cannot provide the 1.7 amp required trigger current..Obviously, not all 18 output tracks shown to aid clarity..Chris./media/tinymce_upload/DFJ003_TT.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 John,Drawing has been posted. When moderated, should appear directly above this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hairy, thanks for your imput. Have set cv29 to 38, and it now runs, CHRISSAF, hi, that will teach me to ask questions, have now got to understand pictures. Summing up, if you remove the bus, and the droppers, i am left with 18 tracks., DFJ, to bridge, DFJ to input track, do have 4 amp transformer with elink, presently using select. Would need to ckeck if i can use 4 amp supply, but if so, would enable a mock up to make sure its ok, before re joining to layout. Is that how i should be reading it. Failed technical drawing, at o level, too busy getting commerce, law, economics, shoulda spent more time on physics too. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 John,I'm assuming that the 36 wires you refer to are the DCC droppers for your 18 output tracks. No I wouldn't disconnect them, leave them connected to your DCC BUS. These are represented by the thin Brown and Blue wires to the right hand side of the TT in my drawing. From previous posts you have made, you have stated that your TT has slip rings (before anybody jumps in with a comment that a TT with slip rings doesn't need a RLM. John has a particular requirement to be fulfilled that has been well discussed in other threads of his)..As I understand it, usually a TT with slip rings uses some form of spring contact on the underside of the rotating bridge track to make contact with the input and output rails. The TT will need to be modified to remove these contacts. The bridge track needs to be completely physically isolated from the rest of the track inputs and outputs and connected purely via the DFJ003 as shown in the drawing..With the bridge track completely isolated and getting its power only via the DFJ003. Then the 18 output tracks can be left connected to your track BUS. The DFJ003 will handle any potential short circuits it discovers and perform its polarity reversal role to remove the short circuit condition as the loco traverses the bridge from input track to output track..I believe currently you have got four sound locos. With the TT wired as per my drawing. The sound locos should be able to sit on any of the output tracks without loss of sound because they are all permanently wired to the DCC BUS via the droppers. Any Diesels with lights will maintain their lights 'on' status too..I thought my drawing was self-explanatory but let me elaborate further. The very thick Brown & Blue wires represent your DCC BUS. The thinnest Brown & Blue wires represent your track droppers. The medium Brown & Blue lines represent your tracks. The Black wires represent the output of the DFJ003 RLM that can swop polarity when a short circuit is detected. With the bridge rails (shown in Black) completely electrically isolated from the input & output tracks. Their only power comes via the DFJ003 RLM..When a loco approaches the bridge track from the input track. The loco pickup wheels will bridge the gap between the input track and the bridge track. The DFJ003 will then, if necessary, reverse the polarity of the rails so that they match the polarity of the input rails. Thus, any risk of a short circuit is eliminated. Once the loco is fully on the bridge track, all loco DCC power comes via the DFJ003..Now consider this example. A loco has driven forward onto the bridge from the input track. The bridge is physically in the horizontal position shown on the drawing. The DFJ003 will have switched the bridge track polarity to match the input track. That is to say the Bridge rail nearest the top (12 o’clock) position becomes Blue polarity. The Bridge rail nearest the bottom (6 o’clock) position becomes Brown polarity..The TT rotates 90 degrees clockwise, so that the Bridge is now vertical. The front of the loco is facing down. The Blue bridge rail will be on the right and the Brown bridge rail will be on the left. Note, this is the opposite of the output track Brown & Blue polarity of the output track at the 12 o’clock position..You now reverse the loco off of the bridge onto the output track at the 12 o’clock position. As the loco pickup wheels bridge the gap between the bridge and output tracks. The DFJ003 detects the build-up of a short circuit current developing and near instantaneously reverses the bridge track polarity to match the 12 o’clock position output track polarity, removing the short circuit..The same process of short circuit detection and polarity reversal continues as often as is necessary for every possible input and output permutation of the TT bridge..The Hornby 4 amp supply is compatible with the Select, the e-link and the Elite..PS - Don't forget to set the A & B Link configurations of the DFJ003 shown on the drawing. These link positions are very important..It is very important to ensure that the Bridge track is completely electrically isolated from ALL the input tracks and output tracks. Check this throughly with your multi-meter with the Bridge in all possible positions. If this electrical isolation is not 100%, it is possible to damage the DFJ003 when you connect the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Further comment (edit window expired)John,It may not be necessary to undertake a drastic modification of your TT to remove contacts, it all the tracks that connect to your TT are connected with Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJ). See Brians page (this link was also provided in one of your other post replies), note in his drawings both TT types (Slip Rings and RLM) are connected to the rest of the tracks via IRJs:.http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC%202.html#Turntables Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Chrissaf, i understood your diagram, but took it apart, as have no bus. All i have now, is a TT, DCC, connected to a select, with 18 tracks, coming off, all with droppers back to choc blocks. TT, came ready wired, all rails connected. All i did, was to extend wires to fit layout. On testing now, only the bridge, is out of step. All the other tracks, read fine with a meter, and sample locos, travel happily on tracks, until they hit the bridge, which is out of sync. What i was suggesting, was if i wired the DFJ, to the bridge, and other side to input track, (not connected to layout ), and tested, was that an option. If not, i will have to work underneath, to ensure, all 19 items, sing off same hymsheet. My limited understanding, was that this thingme, compensated/sorted polarity. It appears not to be the case. john 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Chrissaf, i understood your diagram, but took it apart, as have no bus. All i have now, is a TT, DCC, connected to a select, with 18 tracks, coming off, all with droppers back to choc blocks. TT, came ready wired, all rails connected. All i did, was to extend wires to fit layout. On testing now, only the bridge, is out of step. All the other tracks, read fine with a meter, and sample locos, travel happily on tracks, until they hit the bridge, which is out of sync. What i was suggesting, was if i wired the DFJ, to the bridge, and other side to input track, (not connected to layout ), and tested, was that an option. If not, i will have to work underneath, to ensure, all 19 items, sing off same hymsheet. My limited understanding, was that this thingme, compensated/sorted polarity. It appears not to be the case. john 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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