Hurricane Boy

Marto said: In RNZAF service it was always P-51D Mustang, not Mustang IV. The RCAF operated Mustangs from June 1942(Mustang I's) through to at least 1956 (Mustang IV's in Auxiliary Sqd's) and maybe later in flying and gunnery schools and for use as "hack" aircraft, with the last ones being struck from inventory in 1961. There was a two month gap in Jan/Feb 1945 and a two year gap mid 1945 to mid 1947. They were always referred to as Mustang 1, Mustang III and Mustang IV, not P-51. Same went for the Sabre.... always Sabre mk2 or Sabre 2 and not F-86E or F-86E(M).

In an earlier post, I had indicated that the NAA A-36 was called the Intruder.... I meant to say Invader. Later, when the A-36 was referred to as a Mustang the Invader name was applied to the A-26 light bomber. Here is a page out of "Air Progress - Air Trails Review 1942" where the XP-51 is referred to as the "Apache" as noted in an earlier post. AP-ATR-1942 pg50.pdf

Jon replied to Hurricane Boy: Firstly, I thank you for your reply, I meant as I said, I would like the chance to build an original Mustang, as was used by the RAF (before the USAAF got interested in them), whether it was powered by an Allison or a Roll Royce, but the idea of one of each would be even better. secondly, while you are correct that the RAF had thought of buy the Curtiss p-40, and that the people who were asked to do it did say that they could design and build something better, they were still working to the specifications given by the procurement offices needs, which was obviously exceeded, but the original designation was give as Mustang, which was given before the first plane was being built, and it was given in honour of the fact that it was being built in the US, which means that it should be recognised as the original title, shouldn’t it? Thirdly, I am fairly sure that your 1941 date is at least a year out, because, I am sure that the USAAF didn’t get interested until after the first conversions from the Allisons’s, to the Rolls Royce Merlin powered version, when the RAF made the Mustang X in mid to late 42, and while the USAAF were testing the Mustang X, it was the best part of a year, before they converted the B’s & C’s to use the Rolls Royce supercharged Merlin 66’s, which were then finally added to by the fully formed Mustang. Fourthly, while I don’t have the total numbers of planes used by the British and the US, I do know that the RAF alone had 18 squadrons compared to the US’ 20 in the UK, but then there’s all of the other British Empire forces that used them in the Far East too, which I think would mean that your use of the US being “the major user”, something that is a close run thing, although, if you have the exact numbers used by both forces(US & RAF’s) then I am happy to learn. And finally, I am grateful for your comprehensive reply, and I look forward to your response to my reply, especially if you are adding to my knowledge base, which is fairly limited, because I am not a scholar, I am just an avid reader, and watcher of documentaries. Hi Jon I do whole heartedly agree with you that the Mustang was an orphan child for the USAAC. It was not requested by them nor built to their specs. They had their hands full getting the bugs worked out of the P-38, P-39 and P-47 so the Mustang had low/no priority. If it had not been for USAAC Assistant Air Attaché Major T Hitchcock and General Hap Arnold, the US may have never operated them. One thing for sure is that the Hitchcock (USAAC) took great interest in the Mustang/Merlin marriage and sold Hap Arnold on the Merlin lash-up. The Americans were primarily influenced by the calculations done by Witold Callier, Chief Aerodynamic Engineer at RR Hucknell predicting a 440 MPH top speed at 25,600 feet (right on the money I say). Callier did his calculations after the legendary April 1942 declaration by RR Test Pilot Ron Harker that the Mustang coupled with the Merlin 61 would be a world beater. So, in July 1942 the USAAC ordered two Merlin 61 powered Mustang Prototypes from NAA and in August placed an order for 400 P-51B’s with NAA. All of this happen before either the first Mustang X flew (October 13, 1942) or the first XP-51B flew (November 20, 1942). Neither flight test affected the placement of the first P-51B orders in August because neither had flown yet. The USAAC had ordered the A-36 into production in April 1942 after commandeering RAF aircraft from various production batches after Peral Harbour. They went on to order 1200 P-51A aircraft in August 1942 but only 310 were actually built before the P-51B took over on the production lines. This order may have been to keep the production line going until the P-51B was ready to take over. The P-51/P51A/A36 aircraft served the USAAC primarily in North Africa and the CBI. I will send along a pdf page from Air Progress/ Air Trails Review – 1942 that shows an XP-51 captioned XP-51 “Apache” and see if it gets posted. Timeline MAY 23, 1940 - Order Placed by BPC (and approved by the US Army on the condition that two aircraft would be handed over to them for trials) SEPTEMBER 9, 1940 - Prototype Roll out (without engine) OCTOBER 26, 1940 - Prototype First Flight APRIL 23, 1941 - Production Aircraft first flight (AG345) October 1941 - Delivery to the UK to Boscombe Down May 1942 - Into Squadron Service with RAF June 6, 1943 - A-36 into Service US April 16, 1942 - A-36 order (500 aircraft) by USAAC April 1942 - Go Ahead for RR Mustang X conversion (Hives) June 1942 - P-51A order (310 aircraft) by USAAC July 25,1942 - Order for two NAA Mustang Merlin Prototypes = XP-51B by USAAC August 1942 - Order for NAA P-51B (400 aircraft) by USAAC October 13, 1942 - First flight of Mustang X November 20, 1942 - First flight of XP-51B

Thanks for sharing Dominic Tim

Looking good Ratch. As always, thank you for sharing! Cheers, Tim

Ratch, I know you were kidding….My poor old Dad, on the other hand, was not.

Thanks for sharing Patrick. Interesting that it was 1/72nd scale. I believe that was the scale used for the allied WW2 aircraft recognition models. They were typically painted black but yours has decals and camouflage is recommended. Ratch said....But its not plastic This is too funny, as I vividly remember in the fifties my father saying of our plastic kits..... But its not balsa! Tim

John Redman said ..... There's never been a famous Austin Maxi that I know of, John, I found this while researching how the Maxi compared to the Austin America found in the mid 60's on this side of the pond. On 1 July 1969, John Lennon crashed a white Maxi on the single track A838 road near Loch Eriboll in the Highlands of Scotland. ....from Wiky 😃 Tim

Hi Randall. May I suggest.... Hollis Hills Mustang I from 414 Sqd RCAF aircraft RU-M AG488 that he flew over Dieppe on a tactical reconnaissance mission 19August1942 during the ill fated Dieppe raid. I should have said should have been AG 470 Randall. I wonder what AG488 was…..mis-filed in my brain in any event Tim

Does that count as natural weathering? I think that referring to it as combat damage may be more appropriate 😂

Hi Randall check out this IPMS canada addendum of IPMS Canada articles on the Mustang I. Good detailing notes on adding the four 30 calibre machine guns, paint schemes etc https://www.ipmscanada.com/rt-issues-text/Mustang Addendum (May 2020).pdf

Hi Randall. May I suggest.... Hollis Hills Mustang I from 414 Sqd RCAF aircraft RU-M AG488 that he flew over Dieppe on a tactical reconnaissance mission 19August1942 during the ill fated Dieppe raid. He knocked down a FW-190 for the first ever Mustang aerial victory. Hollis was an American volunteer in the RCAF who later re-mustered with the US Navy flying Hellcats in the Pacific becoming an ace there.

Looks like that aircraft destroyer is indiscriminate as to axis or allied. 😂

Hey Randall i remember the original naming of the USAAF P-51’s from my dad’s war time aviation magazines verified by this copy/paste from wiki. The 150 NA-91s were designated P-51 by the newly formed USAAF and were initially named Apache, although this was soon dropped and the RAF name, Mustang, adopted instead The A-36’s were called Intruders later adapting the Apache and Mustang names

Hi Jon just a couple of comments and questions… an original Mustang in the original RAF markings? do you mean one of the 650 Mustang I’s that the British Purchasing Commission purchased from North American Aviation in lieu of the Curtis P-40’s that the BPC wanted NAA to build for them under licence from Curtis? The Mustang was an original NAA design that NAA promised the BPC to be better than the P-40….and it certainly was. It was an American design. The USAAF ordered 2 aircraft as P-51 Apaches and some similar and related fighter bombers/ dive bombers known as A-36 Intruders. After December 7th, 1941, the USAAF took over RAF aircraft that had not been delivered and referred to them as P-51a’s. The USAAF later adopted the RAF name, Mustang for all their P-51’s. I sure wish that Airfix would make a good Mustang I / P-51a kit wrongly called a P-51 Mustang? The major user of this aircraft was the USAAF who happened to call them P-51’s. So in reference to this aircraft in USAAF service you call them P-51 Mustangs P-51a’s, P-51b’s, P-51c’s, P-51d’s and so on, while in RAF and Commonwealth service you call them Mustang’s…..Mustang I’s, Mustang II’s, Mustang III’s and so on… Pick your poison! that just happened to be built in the US.? ….. and specified, conceived, and designed in the US. But to be fair, had the BPC not agreed with NAA’s proposal for the original order and had Rolls Royce Hucknall not seen the potential of the 60 series Merlin in this airframe we would not have had the great Mustang III/ IV / P-51b/c/d aircraft in WW2