The future of Electrotren AC versions?

[Twinrover1965]

Can anybody please advise me regarding the current policy regarding the future provision of AC versions of locos. I telephoned  the Hornby HQ somehere in Kent to ask this question some months ago on more than one occasion but nobody seemed to know! Apparently the International Brands unit of the company seems to operate in a rather clandestine fashion and doesn't tell anybody anything nor can they be contacted! In fact, I asked about  the availability of catalogues, which I was willing to pay for, at Ally Pally the second year running and the answer was the catalogues are in the boot of a car outside the building plus no mention whatsoever of the International Brand in any promotional material or displays. It seems Brexit has well and truly gone to their heads. It wasn't so long ago that all the continental brands were present at this exhibition, now we have Hornby with a golden opportunity to promote something where there is no competion [apart from a Fleischmann layout on the Gaugemaster stand] but completely misses the opportunity big time. This is the direct result of employing people with retail degrees against taking people on with a passion. I guess the proper experts all got the boot for looking a bit strange and not smiling at the managing director.  I don't like to rant but the simple fact is that I find these days that there is no shortage of potential customers who wish to purchase something but are obstructed from doing so because of the malign influence of the discredited crackpot theories of the Harvard business school such as the dogma of market segmentation and narrow computer generated preconceptions of what types of products certain kinds of consumers want to buy. Because I attend an exhibition in London doesn't mean that I am only interested in products focused only on UK subjects, surely?  I have  English, German, Spanish and Japanese layouts for heaven's sake! Hope someone in the know can answer my AC question. In addition, I pray only for the sake of Hornby International's future that the uncontactable  and mysterious international brands dept is aware that 3 rail AC still rules supreme in Spain for historical reasons mainly because of the country's long association with Marklin; in fact, the former Spanish owned Electrotren used to make its own three rail AC M track under licence from Marklin up to the 1970s but I suspect that this basic and very simple fact will be news to them!

[ellocoloco]

Hi Twinrover1965

 

Welcome to the forum and its nice to have another RENFE fan signing on...........

 

It would appear that from the 2016 catalogue most new Electrotren models were not offered with an AC option. I think this was continued across Rivarossi, Lima and Jouef at the same time. There has been much discussion, a few years ago, on http://www.forotrenes.com/.

 

I can understand your frustration with the lack of info coming from the International Brands part of Hornby - I for one would welcome them being included in the 'Engine Shed' - I would suggest Electrotrens FB page as a first point of call. Also, http://www.clubelectrotren.com/ to see whats coming. I do agree that Hornby could push the Int'l brands more at shows, but their budget is, I guess, limited and they will focus on what the demand is for. Electrotren do have stands at some of the bigger shows in Spain and will push to the domestic market there. I expect there is very little interest overall in Spanish models in the UK - I recall only two Spanish layouts in CM in the last 30 years - and very little is available off the shelf in UK model shops.

 

I don't agree with you regarding the position of AC in the Spanish market - historical links or not. I have been collecting Renfe HO for 20 years now - and might build a layout in the next 20....! - and I have not seen a large proportion of AC models in the shops I have gone to! Mabar appear to have also ditched AC versions with their release of the early 319 and 340 and now offer an alternative AC bogie for the 313. When this model was first released there were separate AC references. The Spanish market was hit hard after 2008 and around 2012/2013, Hornby International - and Hornby 00 - went through some challenging times and many on the Spanish Forums are thankful that there are any Electrotren models being released today! Roco did offer their last release of the 319 in AC, but that is the only 'new' RENFE offering in AC that I know of.

 

Hope this helped!

[Tim M]

Afternoon Twonrover, and thanks for your interest in the AC variants from Electrotren.

There are still a number of AC models in the catalogue and in stock, but overall sales of them generally means they are less and less viable to make for the Spanish market, hence in 2016 a decision was taken to focus on DC and DCC Sound fitted variants.

The 2019 catalogue is available to order form our website, and from any Hornby dealer (althought most may have to order it specially for you if they don't hold Continental rolling stock).

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/electrotren-h0-1-87/electrotren-new-for-2019/international-brands-catalogue-spring-summer-2019.html

You are right in that in the UK the knowledge of the European bands had dropped, until the changes under the new management in October 2017. Personally I had been selling the Electrotren range since 2005. We had a display of International products on display at Warley, and I have been told it was also on display at Ally paly (althought I was not there to confirm).

Whilst we can't always field an expecrt for every area of our hobby at shows we do try to ensure the majority of people will speak to someone knowledgable at the events.

Hope this helps

Tim

[The Duke 71000]

Twinrover1965 !

As I'm living here in Spain and working with a Spanish Railway Museum, and obviously a modeller. I have been taking a keen interest in the modelling situation here in Spain. I should add that in addition to a number of Railway qualifications I also have qualifications in Marketing, Market Research, Advertising, and the Model Railway Industry, having been Europes ONLY Importer, Wholesaler and retailer of ALL the numerous Japanese Ranges. So I've been doing a little Market Research both for the Museum and to try and get to grips with the Model Railway world or lack of it here in Spain. The warm climate is NOT a deterent to indoor hobbies I firstly discovered.  

I've been to virtually every model railway exhibition (almost all of which are confined to Catalunya) and the only 3 rail products I have come across are current Marklin (obviously German) and old secondhand Ibertren N gauge 3-rail. Ibertren have also just recently stopped trading, and at this years Spanish "National" show in Lleida (end of March) the Ibertren agent was simply selling off remaining stocks, at big discounts. I have never yet seen an "Electrotren" 3-rail item, although without examining everything on the second-hand stalls can't be sure. Indeed there is little new available. The Hornby Electrotren agent had just a handfull of current batch produced items on his stand (all appeared 2-rail), and the Barcelona model shops are no better. The only other Spanish manufacturer (today) is Mabar, a new and small husband & wife team who get their limited quantity runs made in Hong Kong (all 2-rail DCC compatible). In all the Barcelona shops the Germans have stolen a march, and its 90% German ranges. One shop has discovered the gigantic Japanese ranges but is adding at least a 200% mark up, as no-one in Spain is aware Japanese ranges are literally "Rolls Royces at Ford prices". Again not seen anything 3-rail except Marklin !!!

Most shops here seem hell bent on using Wholesalers (which forces the price up by at least 30%) and therefore only stock what wholesalers import. Itself a problem as the average Spaniard can't afford €200 for a model locomotive. Hence large numbers of second hand dealers at shows. There is also a monthly second hand trade fair in Barcelona Villa Franca station (The large but now little used Terminal station).

There are 4 reasonably good model shops in Barcelona city centre area, and a handful more in the suburbs. No British outline, only small quantities of Spanish and near everything else German outline. From this I would surmise Electrotren 3-rail is dead, as is all 3-rail except Marklin. 2-rail DCC is now "de rigour". 

I have approached the Hornby Electrotren agent here in Spain firstly 3 years ago. Initially he refused my request concenring British outline saying "He was prohibited from importing such items." However there has obviously been a recent policy change at Hornby (UK) as their Spanish agent is now happily talking sense, and willing to consider almost anything. I suspect as the Hornby International ranges are now also seen on this website, that this is the first step in broadening Hornby's horizons !!!!!   

Having noted what "ellocoloco" has said. I will re-iterate that I can't find any current 3-rail models and certainly NOT on the Mabar or Hornby Electrotren stands. 2-rail DCC has virtually taken over everything. The Spanish are also taught in school that only the latest technology is any good, so at exhibtions a number of layouts are now operated (unsuccesfully in most cases) from Mobile phones, wifi-ing to DCC.

The layout I'm building for the Museum is big (87ft x 23ft) and based on Basingstoke (1958-67) in 1:76 scale. A few months after I started construction on the layout the Millionaire owner brought a whole troop of people down to see progress. This included the Editor of a Spanish Model Railway Magazine, the President of a Barcelona Model Railway Club, and about a dozen Museum members from the Barcelona area. What stunned me was that they didn't recognise or understand many of my carpentery tools, or modelling tools. They couldn't understand my Professional exhibiton layout baseboard methods, and not even the Editor had ever heard or seen handbuilt track. So amusing explanations as what a Wood Plane was and how you use it, was followed by explanations about the Marine plywood sandwich frame methods used. As to my handbuilt pointwork they were gob-smacked when I demonstrated a little construction and explained I can build a 7ft radius point in about 2 hours which costs around £5. So I dropped myself right in it. The Museum owner immediately wanted me to start teaching Museum members carpentery and track building skills. So now nearly 2 years on a second large layout based on Mora la Nova station in 1974 (end of steam here) is also under construction.

Food for thought

The Duke 71000 

[Twinrover1965]

I thought I would wait a little to gather the responses on the AC issue. I feel I should clarify that when I said "three rail" I did mean Marklin M or C. The last commercially available actual three rail "a-la-Hornby Dublo" Marklin track was I believe a set of 3600 series points advertised in its 1959 catalogue! The "stud" track has been the only available type since then

From what you say, time has certainly passed on from when I was living in Lisbon, Portugal about 40 years ago. At that time Marklin AC was literally everywhere, almost like a plague, in both Spain and Portugal with Electrotren's version of Marklin's M track remaining in their catalogues until 1991, not the 1970s as I had previously stated in my initial post. Enthusiasm for model railways did exist but in a sort of muted way, not advertised - the interest that did exist in transport was multi-modal. For example, a friend of mine in Lisbon had quite an extensive Marklin M track layout but he also visited the military air show in Setubal as well as keep a diary of ships visitng the docks, which were still quite busy in those days. Transport texts tended to be written by obscure academics published by the university and were highly detailed written in a scholarly style but only seemed to be on sale at one of the open air book fairs. The Spanish market was a little more developed with magazines, etc. Don't forget RENFE, before the US trained accountants and mangagement consultants descended and decimated it, was a huge employer in Spain [Franco like Mussolini used the railway system to unite regional differences] in that virtually every station, even those in the middle of nowhere, was manned and lovngly cared for as well as each having a goods yard - some more utislised than others. I spent many a late afternoon during my travels in the 70s and 80s after lunch [ and eating in the same "cantina" as the staff, if a large station] watching the shunting in these yards or the bizarre spectacle of a huge diesel hauling a single passenger coach and depositing a handful of punters on the platform. The flower displays alone were beautiful: I just want to cry when I see the once loved and actually lived in brutalised, denuded and vandalised stations of today on the Huelva to Seville broad gauge route in YouTube videos. Given this, the need to fantasise with models was not a priority because the real thing was still very much in evidence in daily life. 40 years on, becuase of this rationalisation and obvious degradation, however, I can now see a ready appetite for more realistic railway modelling as an outlet for nostalgia and reliving the past.

Although I have embraced much of the new technology, I still operate both analogue AC and DC layouts. I have seen some fantastic DCC layouts but I really much prefer the simplicity and lower costs involved in analogue, and by employing AC, setting up a reverse loop without all that wiring to worry about. Moreover, the sounds generated by computer chips just don't cut the mustard for me; in some cases the sounds are totally unrealistic and seem like a series of farmyard noises being played through an enhanced stereo chamber from the 1970s.

So The Duke 7100, thank you - you have brought me up to date somewhat with the current situation, particularly with young people's taste for two rail DCC and as they form the basis of future markets, the question of AC seems less hopeful. Nevertheless, I would like to point out that when I recently viewed a Sud Express catalogue it showed AC versions of each loco available for sale. I understand that Sud Express is quite a successful company so it is interesting that they have chosen to continue dual provision of their models. I hope you do not take offence, however, when I think you should consider that not everybody wants to nail down and laboroiously ballast track as if this is the only way to enjoy railway modelling. I know in the UK anybody who doesn't do carpentry or have a bottle of glue and hammer to hand is regarded as some kind of weirdo and not a genuine modeller. Since the demise of Hornby Dublo in 1964, such people have been totally ignored by the big manufacturing and publishing interests in the UK, apart from sympathetic reviews by Peter Marriot, with the result that hobby is diminishing as not everybody can take part. Very much like the education system in the UK where if you were not good at sport in certain secondary schools you just didn't exist!!! It is only those who look beyond these rather narrow minded and suffocating shores and find there is track for them while retaining scope for some sophitication at a later time such as the addition of points and signals that can be attached to the track - you see no drilling!. I have been a great fan of bedding track of various makes since 1976 and it suits my purpose: one week I build my Kato layout, the next my Fleischmann Profi, the following my Marklin C mixed together with M and a sprinkling of French VB finishing of with some Trix C and I love it. I'm currently saving up for the new PIKO A bedding track and then the two Rocos will complete the picture! I live in a large studio flat and I do not want mess all over my £800 Turkish carpet thank you very much! There are also those who are elderly and disabled, have dementia/chronic illness and those just wanting to play trains who would appreciate a ready ballasted solution. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that PIKO have developed their own ready ballasted track given the competition from other brands. I think it is the charismatic Managing Director of this company that is bringing new ideas to the hobby and he is certainly getting good reviews on both quality and price.

I do admire your efforts at the railway museum and it will be interesting to learn how everything transpires. Going by from what you say you seem to have a golden opportunity to develop traditional railway modelling throughout the Iberian peninsular albeit 2 rail DCC without bedding!

In so far as AC is concerned Marklin still have a Spanish offshoot so I don't believe AC will disappear completely. You should bear in mind that many Spanish went to work in Germany after the war so there will always be that connection now with family ties. German companies have also traditionally expected their sales staff to speak the language of the nation in which they seek contracts in contrast to British ones who only spoke English, the result of which is obvious, particularly in a place like Spain that has a rich oral tradition. What sustained Marklin in the UK, particularly in London and the south-east was the very large numbers of national servicemen who spent time in Germany during the post war period and developed their interest. Sadly, this generation of modellers is passing on leaving behind the mad bad and the sad like me - those born in the 1950s in other words - who have been left high and dry with no UK shops to purchase from or to ask any queries but I have to say an excellent website "Marklin Users" manages to plug the gap most of the time.

Concerning the Alexandra Palace show, there was no International range on display. I still maintain that the Hornby stand should have included examples or at least atalogues to sell. On average 2.2 million Brits spend their holidays in Spain every year so there should be a golden opportunity to sell Spanish things to the public here let alone enthusiasts. If there's one thing tourists remember it is the transport they use to get around. If I were a major shareholder in Hornby, I would be calling an emergency meeting. I know the show itself is controlled by one of those Lincolnshire based publishing houses which has a rather strange agenda of removing Europe from the narrative but if you are a business making something make some attempt to market and sell it!

Thank you all for your contributions and your warm welcome elloloco!

[Bexhill Donkey]

If you have a collection of three-rail AC-locos, it is only a simple matter to adapt standard HO track with Peco SL-17 stud contact strip for tracks and SL-18 stud contact strip for points and cross-overs. You don't need to convert your 3 rail locos to 2-rail. SL-17 and SL-18 fits under Streamline and Setrack for use with the Marklin system.