4-4-0's Only

[mortehoe]

Postman Prat said:


You'd probably find it easier to start with an LMS 2P to get a close, visual, representation!!

mortehoe said:

LC&DR said: That might be a worth while project, I might even be able to put together a Midland

990.

Is it possible that this will be a future NRM special commission, particularly now that the blue box co have got the tender all tooled up?How much work would be required to make it into a D1. Only joking LC&DR..............

[The son of Triangman]

Hornby did convert the old Tri-ang L1 into a 2P in 1973. With a little backwards conversion work, a new tender top it would give us a nice railroad L1.

As for a wainwright D, yes please, it would be a nice loco to add, I just wonder about it's appeal

as it is a southern loco and it would be mainly limited to southern modellers.

[mortehoe]

Hi SoT. The trouble with a lot of the Southern Fans, we tend to be " Fickle ". I could see that a D in SE&CR livery would appeal even to fans of foreign lines. Unfortunately, I am one of the "Fickle" ones. In any guise I do not find the " D " appealing.

Yet D1, E1, or L1 in any livery yes please. Yet if Hornby were to go insane and produce the Maunsel re-work of the T14 "Paddlebox" I would be daft enough to have the whole class. As LC&DR will, and no doubt many others will tell us, at best " lacklustre ",

most other times poor performers, there is something ruggedly ugly, yet beautiful to my eyes with this class.
No accounting for taste I suppose.

[minor]

The main factor determining which 4-4-0 is likely to be the next release is commercial viability. Manufacturers are likely to judge this using a combination of criteria.
1. Numerically large classes are more likely to achieve geographical spread and

therefore suitable for a greater number of layouts. They are also more likely to have been ‘spotted’ in someone’s childhood
2. The majority of 4-4-0 types were pre grouping designs. Classes that survived the longest offer a greater choice of livery and

are more likely to be remembered by potential purchasers.
3. Potential purchasers in 2013 would have to be in their 60’s to remember steam in before 1960. Classes that have survived into preservation are more likely to sell.
The problem for Southern

fans is that once you get beyond the ‘Schools’ (40 engines) and ‘T9’ (over 60) classes there are about 15 other candidates of which the D (28 survivors in 1948) and L11 (40) appear to be the most numerous. The L1 had 15 survivors in 1948.
GWR fans will

shortly have ‘City’ and ‘Dukedog’ classes from the B team and ‘Churchward County’ from our hosts. Not really that much left for a railway that was mainly a 4-6-0 operation anyway
LMS fans have both 2P and 4P types available although a ‘Midland’ version

of the 2P might be a candidate. The Pickergill Caledonian 4-4-0’s (32) are another possibility and may appeal to Scottish fans but ‘north of the border’ classes tend to be smaller in number anyway, only 8 “Ben’s” in ’48.
LNER types present a different problem.

Following the upgrade to the ‘B17’ the next logical step is to re-tool the D49 with stepped tender and offer it as a ‘Shire’ rather than ‘Hunt’ ( although now that Hornby are tooling for ‘rotary’ valve gears, this too could be a worthy choice). The LNER debate

then gets embroiled in the various GE/GC/GN/NE loyalties.
The GN types were all gone by 1950 and only the D2 had more than 50 class members.
GC’s most numerous were the D9’s but by 1948 they were outnumbered by D11 (B team)
The GE has probably the

most pressing case with the ‘Claud Hamilton’ D16’s of which there were over 100. Shares tender tooling with B12 & B17 but the GE 4-4-0 is a minefield of boiler/cab/splasher/firebox/valancing combinations resulting from various rebuilds that it is a brave choice

of project if you want to please everybody!
The NE D20 stands out a mile. 60 examples, most lived into BR days and not extinct until 1956
GN of S and NB classes are small in number but tended to last for ages. D40 (one preserved of 23 built) is a nice

loco and the NB D34 (one of 32) has a similar claim.

[mortehoe]

Minor, you make some very good points. I am lucky I saw one, if not the very last L1 ( 4-4-0 ). As PP pointed out some time ago, I get nostalgic about things I haven't seen. I think you would be surprised how many people do feel the same way.
How many

people on this Forum have seen a LNER P2 in any guise, not many I'll wager. I bet it will sell like hot cakes. The same would apply to a 4-4-0, 0-6-0, or an Atlantic, get it right and they are on to a winner. A BIT LIKE THE 2-BIL............RUNS FOR COVER...........

[LCDR]

The son of Triangman said:

Hornby did convert the old Tri-ang L1 into a 2P in 1973. With a little backwards conversion work, a new tender top it would give us a nice railroad L1.

As for a wainwright D, yes please, it would be a nice

loco to add, I just wonder about it's appeal as it is a southern loco and it would be mainly limited to southern modellers.

Funnily enough Meccano Hornby chose the L1 as its Southern 'No 2 Special' 4-4-0 when they started making 'realistic'

models to replace the rather generic 2711. They later went on to make a Schools in the much higher spec 'No 4' series, of which only that and the much sought after 'Princess' were the only members. WW2 an 'OO' saw to that. The other 'No 2 Special' 4-4-0s were

the Midland Compound, using some L1 parts, but including a different cab, splashers and outside cylinders, Shire/Hunt, and County. Hornby realised by selling the Midland compound in black livery minus outside cylinders, they had a passable 2P. After the War

the Midland Compound nearly re-appeared in BR livery, but austerity and 'OO' again limited the 'O' range to the primitive 0-4-0s unil its demise in 1964.

Prototypically the L1 was a direct development of the 'L' which in turn was an uprated 'D'. Maunsell

realised he had a useful secondary express type and set about rebuilding the 'D' and the very similar 'Belpaire' 'E' to the 'L1' specification with long travel piston valves and much of the ornamentation removed. There were detail differences but the 'D1',

'E1' and 'L1' were all very much of one class. The 22 'L' class were also given the Maunsell treatment, but externally the wide splashers and Wainwright cab were retained.

I would love to see the L1 return to the Railroad range of course, or perhaps

as the more numerous 'L' if some re-tooling is required.

The 'D' was, certainly in its later days, a widely travelled class, being a popular choice for rail tours. Although most were confined to Southern territory 31075 worked double headed with a

'Dukedog' from Shrewsbury to Towyn with a Talyllyn Society excursion in 1956. In normal work odd ones trotted out over the GWR main line from Reading, there being quite a few allocated to Reading Southern shed in later years.

[minor]

mortehoe said:

Minor, you make some very good points. I am lucky I saw one, if not the very last L1 ( 4-4-0 ). As PP pointed out some time ago, I get nostalgic about things I haven't seen. I think you would be surprised how many people do

feel the same way.
How many people on this Forum have seen a LNER P2 in any guise, not many I'll wager. I bet it will sell like hot cakes. The same would apply to a 4-4-0, 0-6-0, or an Atlantic, get it right and they are on to a winner. A BIT LIKE THE

2-BIL............RUNS FOR COVER...........

[minor]

mortehoe said:

Minor, you make some very good points. I am lucky I saw one, if not the very last L1 ( 4-4-0 ). As PP pointed out some time ago, I get nostalgic about things I haven't seen. I think you would be surprised how many people do

feel the same way.
How many people on this Forum have seen a LNER P2 in any guise, not many I'll wager. I bet it will sell like hot cakes. The same would apply to a 4-4-0, 0-6-0, or an Atlantic, get it right and they are on to a winner. A BIT LIKE THE

2-BIL............RUNS FOR COVER...........

[minor]

Of course the P2 will sell (I will probably get one) but importing a Mikado into a discussion about 4-4-0's brings with it a 4th criteria, "big, green and named' which usually outweighs the other 3 in commercial judgement. Even then, Hornby are taking

a measured approach to this commercial risk by adopting a 'value engineering' approach to both P2 and 8P and offering 2 versions to suit modellers with varying depths of pocket. The advantage of numerically larger classes is that you can always buy more than

one! The 8P is preserved and there is talk of a P2 in 307mm to the foot. If you were to appeal for an L1 replica build I wonder how many takers you would get?

[The son of Triangman]

For all you L1 fans, a mint unused sealed in it's box ex-Tri-ang L1 made under Hornby auspices in 1973. Unusually the loco has the mega rare five pole X.04 motor fitted and someone in the factory has put this on the box.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/thetriangman/DSCF0006_zps3b8ee1eb.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/thetriangman/DSCF0001_zps181ae373.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/thetriangman/DSCF0002_zps16d51c2f.jpg

[The son of Triangman]

The Hornby 2P converted from the L1 moulding in 1973.

An unused example sealed in it's box.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/thetriangman/R450022_zpsae6fec7e.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/thetriangman/R450024_zps3e8e7dff.jpg

A

used example
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t43/thetriangman/1973Hornby2P3QuarterShot1_zps9e0483f8.jpg

Handsome old locos aren't they.

[mortehoe]

minor said:

Of course the P2 will sell (I will probably get one) but importing a Mikado into a discussion about 4-4-0's brings with it a 4th criteria, "big, green and named' which usually outweighs the other 3 in commercial judgement. Even

then, Hornby are taking a measured approach to this commercial risk by adopting a 'value engineering' approach to both P2 and 8P and offering 2 versions to suit modellers with varying depths of pocket. The advantage of numerically larger classes is that you

can always buy more than one! The 8P is preserved and there is talk of a P2 in 307mm to the foot. If you were to appeal for an L1 replica build I wonder how many takers you would get?

It's funny you should mention an L1 Replica. I have been away from

the hobby for years. I had a discussion with a couple of guys about new builds just as " Tornado " was being run in. These guys were up to speed, and informed me that 0-6-0's and 4-4-0's will be the build of choice. The easy answer being, with those wheel

arrangements, the world can become your oyster, you can make almost any engine ( Cosmetically ) that you want. I am not lead by the Hornby catalogue, I was as a boy, the Brush type 2 was a must ( still got mine and it works ), but as I've stated on other threads

I like my 4-4-0's and 0-6-0's and they worked. Where as the 8P as you put it, needed to be preserved and have it's faults " Ironed out " before it worked.

[LCDR]

Inside cylinder 0-6-0s and 4-4-0s are aesthetically more suited to the rural branch line operation that many heritage railways try to create. (Remember the 'Railway Children'?). There are fortunately a lot of 0-6-0s in preservation, but the 4-4-0 is one

type that has escaped the hands of the preservationists. There are some preserved, but they tend nowadays to be 'stuffed and mounted' rather than runners. The Midland Railway had a large fleet of 4-4-0s, in fact it was their staple express motive power, but

apart from the Midland Compound, none survived. The LNWR too was a great adherent to the 4-4-0, as were the Great Eastern, and although they went on and aquired 4-6-0s the 4-4-0 continued to serve them very well.

My own favourite line the SE&CR was

another 4-4-0 line, and Scottish railway companies, despite their severe gradients were also great users of the type.

In model form there are issues. Adhesion not the least. However it can be overcome by the careful use of metal running plates and boilers.

It is still to my mind acceptable to use tender drive for these smaller types, and I am quite happy with my older Hornby Schools class with that propulsion.

[da4472vid]

I would like more 4-4-0s and 4-4-2 Atlantics

[LCDR]

I have just received a quotation for a L1 in O gauge, a replica of the pre-War Hornby one, in tinplate unpainted and partially assembled. Including shipping from Australia where these are made and VAT comes to nearly £1,500!! A lot of money I agree, but

it is still tempting.

[Postman Prat]

D.I.V.O.R.C.E.

[Postman Prat]

D.I.V.O.R.C.E.

[LCDR]

Yes, you are probably correct, she would divorce me TWICE!

[Bulleidboy]

I think that price is very reasonable - a G*LD** AG* Merchant Navy in O gauge is £2450+Vat. It looks a lovely model on YouTube - now where are the lottery numbers?

[mortehoe]

Postman Prat said:


D.I.V.O.R.C.E.

I think you should look at my face book page, and my new recording contract PP.

[mortehoe]

LC&DR said:

Yes, you are probably correct, she would divorce me TWICE!

My first wife divorced me because I bought a Scammell Explorer. I think she was jealous because I named it Trixie after my Beagle ( the current owner has kept the

name ). I was going to name it after the wife, but I couldn't decide on, Old Nag, Moaning Old Bat, Mistakes-We all make them, the list was endless. So Trixie won.

[LCDR]

You lads didn't do your homework, obviously.

I have been married 42 years, to the same girl.

She has put up with my obsession with trains, coming along to ride on heritage trains. Our honeymoon was in Portmadoc (where else!?). She came with

us taking the kids train spotting in the 1980s, managing the picnic and even calling out numbers. She put up with me moving house every five years or so to get a new railway job. She put up with my 'on-call' especially the Control 'phoning and me getting out

of bed at two o'clock to attend a derailment or a suicide on the line. Worse still me getting back into bed with cold extremities when I got back home!! She has also driven a steam locomotive, which is more than I have. We still go on long train journeys together.

She

allowed me layouts in the loft, cellar and the garden, and now a huge shed in the garden too. She DOES think I spend too much on trains, but bless her she does not stop me.

I only got a partial telling off for ruining two tablecloths when I spilled

glue over them, doing modelling on the dining table, Although the second telling off was somewhat harsher than the first!

A true gem of a woman.

I cannot praise her enough.

mortehoe said:

LC&DR said:

Yes,

you are probably correct, she would divorce me TWICE!My first wife divorced me because I bought a Scammell Explorer. I think she was jealous because I named it Trixie after my Beagle ( the current owner has kept the name ). I was going to name it after the

wife, but I couldn't decide on, Old Nag, Moaning Old Bat, Mistakes-We all make them, the list was endless. So Trixie won.

[walkingthedog]

LC&DR that could have been me who wrote that. Only difference is we've been married 40 years.

[mortehoe]

LC&DR and WTD, you are both very lucky. I salute you both, and your good ladies.

[walkingthedog]

I salute mine every morning!