Loco moves at zero throttle ?

[Anton Stedman]

/media/tinymce_upload/e3783a6c75f27e182fb84fc4e5a9c5a2.png

Key:

Green lines= Bachmann points

Red Lines= Points fitted with point clips.

All of them will have point clips soon but I need to buy another packet.

[Chrissaf]

Anton,

I can confirm that you do not have any 'Reverse Loops' designed into your Layout. I await the report of your trials on the test track I suggested.

.

PS - I removed the other interim posts you made just to keep the thread tidy.

.

To try and put lima's statements into some form of intelligible English, I think the essence of what he is saying is:

.

Are the locomotives that exhibit the OL display on the Select, locomotives for which you have installed your own decoders. If so, there might be something not 100% correct with the installation. Maybe poorly soldered wires that are intermittently touching something etc.

.

I would say, if your DCC locomotives are either DCC fitted at the factory or by the people you bought them from, then an installation wiring error is probably unlikely. But worthy of consideration.

.

That is quite a large layout to run on a Select. Let me ask you a few more questions, as I have a possible theory forming:

.

1. How many trains would normally be placed on the layout when you are operating it, include stationary ones?
2. How many locomotives would you normally try to run at the same time?
3. Are you using the standard 1 Amp or the upgrade 4 Amp power supply with your Select.

.

All of them will have point clips soon but I need to buy another packet.

.

If the Bachmann points are the DCC friendly ones as documented in Howbiman's earlier post, then those will not need DCC point clips. In an earlier reply of yours, you stated that the Bachmann points you had seemed to be 'live' on all track connections. This would infer that they are indeed the DCC friendly versions.

.

 

[Anton Stedman]

As to Lima's question all of my locos have factory fitted decoders.  But since the oL problem comes up without any locos on the layout, would this not suggest it was either the controller or the track causing the overload?

[Chrissaf]

Yes it would. I'd forgotten about that statement being made somewhere in previous posts.

[Anton Stedman]

 

1. How many trains would normally be placed on the layout when you are operating it, include stationary ones?
2. How many locomotives would you normally try to run at the same time?
3. Are you using the standard 1 Amp or the upgrade 4 Amp power supply with your Select.

Here are the answers to Chrissaf's questions.

1. Since I have stopped using the analogue mode there are only three trains usually on the layout. However even without the analogue locos the oL message still comes up.

2. I usually only run 1 or 2 locos at the same time.

3. I purchased the 4amp power supply about 5 months ago to try and stop the overload problem (it wasn't as frequent then). I thought my select just needed more power but since it is still bringing up oL with 3 trains on the layout then something else must be wrong as I thought with 4amps of power it was capable of powering up to 10 locos at once.

Also all locos are fairly new (no older than 4 years) so they shouldnt consume too much power compared to older locos.

[Anton Stedman]

I will try to make the test track now.

[Chrissaf]

Since you already have the 4 Amp power supply I am discounting the power supply from the equation. That does actually answer the question as to why you actually see the OL display. OL does not normally display at all when using the standard Select 1 Amp supply. With the 1 Amp supply, the Select normally just goes through a power restart when a short occurs.

.

In some ways it would probably be better if you still get the OL display on a basic test track as that would put the fault area back into the Select. If the test track can't replicate the OL fault even after an extended running time. Then it will be very difficult and time consuming to try and diagnose an intermittent short on your quite large layout.

.

[96RAF]

Anton

CVs are just characteristics of a decoder that can be change to make the decoedr behave differently.

 

Examples are CV2 kick start voltage- if a motor needs a kick to get it going then you can adjust this CV so that when you set the throttle just open it sends the kick start voltage needed to get the motor going.

 

CVs 3 and 4 control the rate of acceleration and decelleration, setting a big value will make the train respond as if it is heavy and slow to go or stop.

 

CV 5 can be used to limit the top speed.

...and so it goes on and on. The nmra list all of these CVs and what they do. Its worth a read to see what is adjustable, but note that not all decoders can be adjusted for all CVs and bot all controllers can do the adjustments

 

Once Select v1.6 is released it will be able to change CVs up to 255 for values up to 255 where these can be adjusted to those values.

 

Rob

[Anton Stedman]

Thanks Rob.

This makes it a lot clearer to understand.

Do you have to purchase a new Select to get this version or can you send them yours to update?

[Anton Stedman]

I have just made the test track. 

Unfortunatly, even after nearly 10 minutes of running the train back and forth, the oL message is not being displayed.

.

I am beginning to think it might be one of my points causing the short because when the loft area was being refurbished I made a small track to keep the trains running. The oL problem came up then (this was just after I had started using my 4amp power supply) and the layout had quite a few points in it. 

.

I know Chris said he wasn't to worried about the "not stopping" problem but since it looks as if the somewhere in the layout is causing the oL problem I thought I may mention the other problem below.

I have done a few more tests with this track and it appears that it is only the TTS sound Flying Scotsman that still is not completely stopping. When I say completely stopping what I mean is that it does stop, but when I come to start it again it moves off straight away and it used to wait about 5 seconds before starting. I tried this with my other TTS sound loco and it was fine, no problems with it. To start with I thought my Flying Scotsman may have a problem with it but since all of the trains used to slowly keep moving I think there is a problem with the control knob on my select. Is it just that the Flying Scotsman can move with less power than the other engines so it is noticeable that the Select is still giving a little bit of power.

.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but there was quite a lot of different happenings when I tried everything out on the test track!

[96RAF]

For TTS you need CVs 3 & 4 set to a minimum of 15 as this enables correct response times.

There is another CV from memory adjustable from 0 to 7.5 seconds with 2.5 seconds as default. I will try to find a TTS leaflet and tell of the number

Rob

[Chrissaf]

With regard the OL situation. The only realistic option to find an intermittent short on an empty layout with no locos on it, is substitution. Realistically, it logically has to be one of the points that is intermittently faulty, since all the other potential culprits (like capacitors in power tracks for example) have now been dealt with.

.

Since the whole layout is effectively live, then any point, even one on a distant siding could potentially be the culprit. Most of the points are either a left hand or a right hand one. If you could temporarily borrow one of each from some less used part of the layout, say a couple of the dead end sidings for example. Then, systematically work your way round the layout, substituting 'one point at a time'.

.

Be sure to allow ample testing time to really be sure that the OL fault is still present or not, before moving on to the next point. Hopefully, you will get to a position where after substituting one of the points, the OL fault goes away and doesn't come back. The point that is then in your hand at that time must therefore be the faulty one. This is going to be a long winded disruptive process, but it is the only one I can suggest, given the whole of our 'back and forth' dialogue we have had to date on this forum has in the main systematically discounted other possible causes.

.

[96RAF]

Edit timed out then I was auto-logged out before i found it.

It is CV201 values 0 to 70 default 25 (2.5 seconds).

Rob

[Anton Stedman]

Thanks all for the helpful posts.

If I find a point that is causing the problem I will let you know.

[Chrissaf]

Just one thing to try before you start taking the layout apart. Lofts tend to be quite relatively dark even with electric lighting if no windows are present. I would go round the whole layout with the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner and systematically cover every inch of the layout. There may just be a tiny bit of metallic debris, perhaps a track pin or strand of stray wire. Something that could generate an intermittent short circuit fault. The idea being that a vacuum cleaner is likely to pick up some debris that is not necessarily easily visible to the eye.

[96RAF]

In a dim room when a loco shorts any spark will be clearly visible and can provide vital clues as to where/what the short culprit is.

[Chrissaf]

That is true if you are watching a train moving. On DCC you can even hear the short happening as a quiet buzzing noise. The only thing is, that Anton say he gets an OL showing on the Select when no trains are on the track.

[Fishmanoz]

Just one thing to be aware of when you remove those 2 siding points to use as substitutes, one of them may be the culprit (but only if Murphy is asleep at the time). Remove them one at a time and check for overloads with each removed. The last thing you will need is to take a faulty point and substitute it for all your good points, finding not surprisingly an overload each time you do it. 

[Anton Stedman]

I have found a problem at the express points located near the tunnel area. One of the points had debri from my peco track rubber wedged inside part of it I removed this and checked other points for similar signs, but couldnt find any more visible problems.

However the oL problem is still coming up as the loco crosses from one express point to the other. Would I have to replace the point or is there anything else you could suggest?

About my peco track rubber, I have read in a Hornby magazine that the Hornby track rubbers don't drop as much debri. Should I get it instead of a Peco one or does it not make a difference?

[walkingthedog]

I suggest you buy one and try it. I have Peco, Hornby and the Double O Gauge Association version. They all do a good job but the DOGA version is best. I don’t get debris from any of them. Perhaps you are pressing down too hard. 

[Chrissaf]

However the oL problem is still coming up as the loco crosses from one express point to the other. Would I have to replace the point or is there anything else you could suggest?

.

Usually, the first thing to suggest checking in that scenario is the 'back to back' measurement of the wheel sets. Sometimes referred to as "B2B". You can buy a specialist B2B gauge or use a digital vernier. A normal ruler is just not accurate enough.

.

The B2B is the distance between the rear faces of the wheels on the same axle and needs to be a nominal 14.5mm on standard 00 gauge. The tolerance is just a mere + or - 0.05mm, hence why a ruler is not really suitable.

.

Example of a B2B Gauge

/media/tinymce_upload/b5c7b28988c42f1d2bba5fb0d53a5485.jpg

Example of a Digital Vernier

/media/tinymce_upload/621c6faa3ae025c8f48b7993414800dc.jpg

.

[Anton Stedman]

 Is there any digital verniers you would recommend?

Preferably one that isn't to expensive.

Thanks.

[walkingthedog]

How about this.  For back to back I would recommend the gauge on Chrissafs post.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mondpalast-Digital-Caliper-Electronic-Micrometer/dp/B01DLGXO6G/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1548081377&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=digital+vernier+caliper&psc=1

[Chrissaf]

Even the cheap eBay ones are good enough for this task. Look to spend about £7 to £10. I wouldn't go too cheap though.

.

Here are a few examples.

[96RAF]

I got my digi-spanner from Lidl for around a tenner many years ago. Cost me almost as much for the B2B gauge.

Rob