Stopping on points.

[kangooman]

Hi all. This is my first post on this very infomative forum.

As you can probally guess I am a complete novice at railway modeling.

I have laid my baseboard (12mm ply on a 3x2 frame) and am in the process of track laying. I will be putting a bus under the layout and I am useing all Hornby track/points etc. I am testing the sections as i go along.

I first had the shorting problem with the points, but thats cured by using the insulated fishplates. But the well publisized problem of the loco (a 0-6-0 from the Somerset Belle Digi set) keep stopping on the points is driving me mad.

Ive tried a little packing , I've got the points pinned down etc but still getting the problem.

Now I am wondering if I was to use some silver conductive compound paint (google it) on the very top of the the black plastic frog ( ie paint the whole top V of the frog ) and still use the insulated fish plates would this overcome the problem. As far as I can see there is no way a short could occur because of the insulated fishplates.

Having said all that I expect you more knowledgable people will have tried it and will avise me accordingly

Thank for reading my first post and I hope you understand what I am trying to do.

Cheers Richard

[2e0dtoeric]

As you surmised, this is a common problem with short wheel-base loco's and the plastic 'frog' on points.

Do NOT paint conductive paint on the plastic part of the point, all you will do is create more misery for yourself.

First off - make sure that all the pick-ups rubbing on the backs of the wheels are really rubbing, and not missing. Check by gently pressing each wheel sideways, and seeing if the wiper still contacts the wheel, check in both directions on all wheels.

What most people do is use a different kind of point, with metal 'live' frogs, but that involves lots of switchery, insulating joiners, and wiring, to prevent shorts, but keep the track live - OR the simpler way for a beginner - permanently attach a 'shunter's truck' to the engine, add extra pick-ups to it's wheels, and connect them to the wires already on the loco - (they MUST be the right way around!) - so you have effectively increased the number of pick-ups on the track.

 

I note you are using DCC, and a BUS. As you have used plastic frog points, there shouldn't be any shorts, unless you have a crossed wire somewhere - or you have a reversing loop in your layout. The plastic-frog point provides it's own insulating.

The easy way to check for this is to use any piece of rolling stock, stick a bit of tape on ONE side, (call that the positive side, for convenience) then without lifting it off the track, push it around, and make little dots on the board with a pen, on the side with the tape on it. If the taped side miraculously changes sides, you've got a reversing loop, and that brings in a whole load more complications! If you hunt through these posts, particularly on the DCC threads, you will find the solutions.

 

Also study the 'sticky' thread at the top of this page, about track extensions. That explains a lot of the basic stumbling blocks, and how to fix them.

 

 

[Fishmanoz]

Just a correction on 2e0's post, Getting Started with Track Extension Packs is at the top of the General forum, not this one.

 

You should also check your points are dead flat when pinned down with a steel rule.

 

And an additional thing to check is that the plastic frog does not cause your loco wheels to ride up off the track because it is too shallow.  If so, use a needle point file to make it a little deeper.

[kangooman]

Thanks for the reply.

The shorting problem is sorted thanks bye using the insulated fishplates.

I've been sifting around on the internet tonight and have come across people that have indeed used this on there frogs, and with success. So I'm thinking to set up a test track/points to see what will happen. As the plastic frog seems to be the main problem I will keep experimenting with ways to overcome it. I've just put some aluminium tape on  the frog to try tomorrow ( just as a test) to see if this improves things.

I think I'm too green at the moment on converting the shunters truck. I'm not too sure how to make the pick ups and I presume I would have to change the axles on the truck etc.....Phew blimey!!!! although I am keen to do this, I will need an idiots guide to how its done 😬

I have done as you suggested and checked all the 6 pickups on the loco, they all look great (its brand new, not that that means much)

I will take on board your suggestions and once again thank you very much.

Just one other point (no pun honest) would Peco set track points be a better option?

Cheers Richard

 

[kangooman]

Thanks fishmanoz.

Ive had the steel rule out (also had the hammer out nearly 😆) and ive think Ive got them as flat as I can, this is where I was trying the shims/packing of the track. Ive got needle files, so I will check that also.

You would think that the Hornby boffins would have sorted this problem by now wouldnt you. Theres pposts out there from years ago, but theres not realy a straight forward answer.I can see why people could get put off railway modeling. There we are I do like a chalenge.

Ready to embrace it again tomorrow after work 🫨

Cheers Richard

[RDS]

Hi Richard

Welcome to the Forum.  The fact that you have had to introduce insulated fishplates at your points, gives cause for alarm, because as 2e0dtoeric says above, you should not have a short.  I imagine at this stage that the reason your Loco stops at the point is because it is re-creating the short, when the Loco bridges the insulated fishplate.  All, or at least most, of the Loco wheels on each side of the Loco are connected to each other, so when they bridge the insulated fishplate, the short will be present again.

 

Are you installing the bus as you are going along, because that it the likely source of your problem.  It would help us, to help you, if you could post a picture of your layout, indicating where you have installed droppers and where you are supplying power to the track.  Your picture will not appear straight away but during the week it should be on the Forum within a few hours, when Admin. have approved it.  (Use the icon to the left of the smiley face to post your picture)

 

Use the method described above by 2e0dtoeric to ensure that you have not cross wired your track.

 

Please let us know how you get on.

[Fishmanoz]

If you use conducting paint on the plastic frog, you turn your insulfrog point into an electrofrog point.  Now it is essential to use insulating fishplates to avoid shorts and, for proper DCC operation, you also need to wire for frog switching when you switch the point.  Lots on here about how to do that too.

 

Then also, rather than fiddling this way, you'd be better off using Peco electrofrog points from the start.  But you must be prepared to do the extra wiring to make them work properly.

[kangooman]

Thank you RDS

No I haven't installed the bus yet, I've been powering the track via a set of home made crocodile clips as a temp measure. There is no cross wiring as the controller does no trip out. I am ok with the wiring aspect as electrical circuits are part of my job ( I've been in the domestic appliance repair business for 35 years)

If I use the dcc clips I get the shorting problem when the loco goes over the points. I am using the insulated fishplates as suggested on the Brian Lambert website and have wired it as he has.

Cheers Richard

[kangooman]

I've bought some Peco set track points today and fitted them. I would say there's a 90% improvement, and I'm sure with a little more fiddling I will get it perfect. Anyway as I say its a vast improvement.

I think with addition of the shunters truck the problem will be sorted.

Could you point me in the right direction with regards to making the truck please. You must think I'm a bit dull but as I say I am new to it. Once I know what is needed I'll give it try.

Thanks once again for help and sugestions.

Richard

[RDS]

... as electrical circuits are part of my job ...

 

Sorry!

I cannot understand why the DCC clips would result in a short.  I have 32 points fitted with them on my layout and never had a problem.  I have added a picture below of one set of my points with the clips fitted.  Is this where yours are fitted?

/media/tinymce_upload/b081d4d6cab8cb59d954ca7bdc24dfda.JPG

[Chrissaf]

Kangooman,

.

As others have repeatedly stated. If your layout is wired correctly, Hornby and Peco Insulfrogs should not create a short circuit. Fitting Insulated Rail Joiners to remove a 'short circuit' is not a proper fix and will only lead to further issues later if not correctly resolved now, whilst it is still possible to make changes during layout construction.

.

There is only one design scenario using Insulfrog points where fitting Insulated Rail Joiners is the correct solution, and that is if your track layout design includes 'reverse loops'. I define a reverse loop as a loop where a loco can return to its original starting point but facing in the other direction.

.

Two examples of the most common 'reverse loops' are drawn below. Does your layout contain any design elements that look like either of these. The second drawing is in effect two 'reverse loops' connected 'back to back'. Note also that if you have a TurnTable in your track layout design, that too can create a 'short circuit'.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/cedeae0326df56452b7a69b86d5371fc.jpg

.

This third drawing explains WHY a 'reverse loop' generates a 'short circuit'. If you do indeed have one or more 'reverse loops' in your layout design and it is going to be a DCC layout, then you need to fit one or more 'Reverse Loop Modules', depending upon your actual track layout design.

.

 

/media/tinymce_upload/a3162b43570240bcab9957fe1223b99a.jpg

.

I appreciate that you are an electrician by trade, but the combined model railway experience of the contributing users on this forum totals 100's of years. Please take advantage of our combined years of experience to advise you.

.

As requested previously, If you were to post your layout design, we could provide more accurately targeted advice.

[2e0dtoeric]

Chrissaf is really calling us a bunch of old duffers now!  :-)

[kangooman]

Thank you for all your suggestions. But I seem to have led you off the beaten track. Please accept my sincere apologies for this.

I think I need to do a rewind and start again.

I first bought a DC train set from Asda (Country to Coast) for £30.

Set it all up, and brand new out of the box it kept stopping on the points .....Why???

I then thought, if I'm going to eventually  build a nice layout I'd be better off going DCC from the start. So I purchased the Somerset Belle DCC set from Hattons for £115 and got rid of the DC set. As you are all aware I'm sure, DCC clips are fitted as standard in a DCC set.

Set it all up, and brand new out of the box it keeps stopping on the points with occasional shorting at the frog.....Why???

So I've blundered on and bought extra track and points, all Hornby to keep it all the same but still having the problems with stopping/shorting at points. So I tried the insulated fishplates (as suggested on the Brian Lambertt site) this instantly cured the shorting problem. But not the stopping on the points, I  was still having to give the loco a little nudge to get it going. If I run the Loco between 1/2 to full throttle there's no problem. But as you know you can't shunt at full throttle !!!!

As I said in the post yesterday I have bought some Peco settrack points and this has improved the situation greatly. I have installed these with the DCC clips and done away with the insulated fishplates.(see I do listen) so far no shorts but still with the very occasional judder/stop over the points.

So my question is ...

With all your combined experience could tell me a simple cure for the stopping on the points please.

Once again thank you all for your patience

Kind Regards

Richard

[Fishmanoz]

Richard, that takes us back to checking out the standard things with points, flatness and wheels not riding up on the frog.

 

Then one further thing to check if you are getting shorting on points and that's the back-to-back measurement on your wheels.  If they are the wrong distance apart, and this is not uncommon, that can lead to a short.  14.5mm is correct if I remember correctly, and someone will soon let us know if I'm wrong.  The wheels are a push fit on the axles so can be adjusted with a little leverage.

 

And just to note that DCC, unlike DC, is particularly sensitive to momentary shorts anywhere.  It can cause decoders to reset to default (ID 03) or lead to something called DC Runaway where the loco takes off like a scalded cat and can only be stopped by turning off the power.  So avoiding shorts is important. 

[kangooman]

Chris thanks for a great post I really appreciate the effort.

I do understand all that you've have said, its simple to me.

Btw I'm not an electrician, I'm a white goods engineer. I'm the fella that brings misery to your home when you call me out to attend to your appliances 😉

Rather than me post a pic of what I'm trying to set up, we best keep it simple and say its the standard oval and track pack A that comes with the sets.

Cheers Richard 

[kangooman]

Thanks Fishman

But would this back to back thing not be correct on a brand new out of the box Loco?

Cheers Richard

[kangooman]

Its unbelievable that a simple train set can cause such hassle.

What on earth would Jo average do on an Xmas morning when little Jimmy is crying that his new train set that santa just bought wont work properly.

I'm beginning to think I should have stayed with some of my other hobbies. 😆 😆

[kangooman]

Btw I dint have all this hassle on christmas morning whilst setting up the battery powered Thomas ice mountain, worked straight outta the box lol.lol Ha ha

Sorry I'll get me coat

[Fishmanoz]

Yes kangoo, back-to-back wrong straight out of the box.  Check them.

[kangooman]

Thanks Fishman

I'll check that 2moz.

Cheers richard

[kangooman]

Board constuction is as flat as a billiard table ( well not quite) but for the purpose of flatness its flat!!!.

Consruction is 12mm ply on a 3x2 frame. If wanted you could probably jump up and down on it without any movement not that I intend to go dancing on it (too old see)

[Chrissaf]

As Fishy says, manufacturing tolerances is something that is not 100% adhered to. A 0.5mm 'back to back' error can be all that is needed for a short vs no short situation. I think most of us on here have had to make adjustments on the odd loco out of the box. It is not uncommon.

.

Thank you also for the precise clarification regarding shorts. With the detailed description you have given in your latest post I now see and appreciate that the 'shorts' are intermittent transient and not track layout design related. I also now understand why the additional Insulated Track Joiners (when you had them fitted) effected a fix, not ideal, but a fix all the same.

.

I use Peco electrofrog points with frog power switching. This combination for me, completely eliminates point shorting and poor loco slow speed running. Hornby & Peco Insulfrogs have their uses, and there are many on here that use them without issue. But personally for me and some on here, electrofrogs is the way to go (Hornby don't make electrofrog points). Point hesitation is, I'm afraid, a fact of life when mixing some 0-4-0 & 0-6-0 locos with Insulfrogs.

.

@eric

Experienced old duffers Eric....please. 😛

.

Btw I'm not an electrician, I'm a white goods engineer.

.

Yes, but I assume you must have a good grounding in electrical theory all the same.

.

Last comment, since you say the layout is based on basic oval plus track pack A. You might find my extension track pack document of interest. Downloadable from the sticky post at the top of the forum 'General Section'.

[WilliamDavid]

I have noticed the same thing while renewing some track and points. My Bachmann 2-6-2 Prairie stalls on the frogs of two brand new standard Hornby points, yet another older Bachmann 2-6-2 tank loco doesn't.

Some locos are just awkward so and soes on points.

[kangooman]

Thanks Chris

I'll be checking it all over again at the weekend and have taken on board everyone's comments.

It just maybe that I'm expecting too much and everything to be perfect. Because I'm starting with no experience I've got nothing to use as a reference.

But I'll learn as I go along. I've already learnt loads in the last few weeks, and with you guys giving me the tips, I know I'll get there in the end. If not keep your eyes open on EBay !!! ( only joking, I wont throw the towel in yet)

Thanks William You can bet your bottom Dollar old Kangooman's got an awkward little so n so. But there we are, if I can get this awkward little so n so sorted then things will hopefully get better.

Cheers Richard

[kangooman]

Btw Chris

I have read your excellent document. In fact it was one of the first things I downloaded.

Perhaps Hornby should consider putting a copy in their train set boxes.

Cheers Richard