How do I achieve these in RailMaster/eLink combo

[Kaustav]

Hello everyone,

I am currently planning my new layout, and I am in research mode, so bear with me please while I provide a brief background of what I am trying to achieve. First thing's first, 'givens'

1. I am NOT building a Hornby Layout - mine is going to be an HO American Logging layout using BLI and Bachmann locos, may be Rivarossi in future.
2. I have two separate set of turonout solutions - 4 Peco turnouts with complete SmartSwith set including the PLS135 decoder. Rest are Tillig turnouts (including 2 double slip switches) to run with Cobalt iP Digital motors (All materials purchased).
3. I intend to create prototypical signalling, including automatic block signalling and a Train Order signal if possible. Preference is to make all of them in operating semaphores, however, I might be OK with search light type signals too.
4. I intend to achieve interlocking (that's why I purchased Cobalt iP Digital since it's easy to achieve with those machines), and possibly interlocking signals.
5. Finally, and most importantly, I intend to do completely automated computer control (including magnetic decoupling), and this is where I need help with.

I already have a Digitrax command station with LocoNet capability, however, as you can understand, my point motors are not LocoNet compatible and has to run on Track Signal. If I cannot use LocoNet to its full potential, I am not sure taking a LocoNet route will yield benefit and this is precisely why I landed on eLink and RailMaster combo. Whatever I have researched till now, this is much easier to set-up, WAY more cost effective for the complete solution and takes much less time in planning and execution. However, given RailMaster is very focussed on Hornby products, and my knowledge on this product is limited I want to make sure I am on the right path, hence the following questions:

• I have read through extensively on the previous issues with PLS135 and Cobalt iP Digital, and I am pleased to see that for both issues there are solutions. However, can these two systems co-exist within the RailMaster universe without creating conflict? My common sense says that it can, however, I would like to confirm from the experts.
• As I mentioned I will not be using any Hornby locomotives, I want to make sure that DCC locos of other brands are fully compatible to the system and I can use all the functions. Any pointers there?
• How does block detection (and possibly transponding) works in RM system? Do I need any specific decoders to achieve this with RM, or any NMRA compatible DCC stationary decoders that can perform this activity will suffice?
• As mentioned earlier, I want to achieve fully automated and functioning block signalling, including a Train Order signal, and may be some interlocking signals too. Now what products do I need to acquire in order to achieve this (other than the signals of course).
• Also, I don’t want just signal simulation, I also want to control the trains through them – If the block ahead is occupied, the signal turns red and the train in the trailing block stops till the signal is yellow, if an interlocked signal is not properly interlocked the signal stays red and the train stops etc. What are my options for this? Any specific products that I should be looking at?
• Has anyone automated Kaadee electromagnetic uncoupler (or similar products)using any stationary decoder and successfully operated it though RM?

Looking forward to your responses. I will be fine with any links to documents/forum threads etc. as well.

Thank you all in advance,

Kaustav 

[Chrissaf]

I have read through extensively on the previous issues with PLS135 and Cobalt iP Digital, and I am pleased to see that for both issues there are solutions. However, can these two systems co-exist within the RailMaster universe without creating conflict? My common sense says that it can, however, I would like to confirm from the experts.

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Most on here would have used one product or the other and not integrated the two together. Thus you are unlikely to get a confirmation from someone who has done precisely your combination.....but you might. As you say, common sense would say that if you can control these products individually then there should be no theoretical reason why they shouldn't work together.

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As I mentioned I will not be using any Hornby locomotives, I want to make sure that DCC locos of other brands are fully compatible to the system and I can use all the functions. Any pointers there?

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This can not be guaranteed. There are many previous posts on the forum where users have experienced issues with programming non Hornby products. But that could be down to user issues other than product compatibility. 'User error' for example or faulty equipment and connections. In principle, RailMaster / eLink is NMRA compliant, but it is written with a bias towards Hornby products. Other software control products that are not written by a traditional manufacturer (Hornby, Bachmann for example) tend to be (out of necessity) more compatible with a wider range of manufacturers ('open source' software products for example).

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The 'loco database' contained within RailMaster only has Hornby loco products in it (understandably). This means that all non Hornby loco products will need to be fully manually entered and manually profiled into the RailMaster system. Automatic 'profiling' needs the Hornby 'Loco Detection' system that is not currently launched (see later comment / answers below).

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How does block detection (and possibly transponding) works in RM system? Do I need any specific decoders to achieve this with RM, or any NMRA compatible DCC stationary decoders that can perform this activity will suffice?

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At this moment in time. RailMaster has NO block detection capability for any third party 'block detection' system. Hornby have been promising BD in the form of 'Loco Detection' for the last 2 years or so. But there is still no currently documented launch date. One thing is known about planned Hornby loco detection, it will be proprietary to Hornby. If you have read the Hornby RailMaster manual you will probably have noticed that it contains references to 'loco detection'. These documented references are for products that are not currently available and subject to change.

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How do I set-up power districts when using eLink and RailMaster? My first thought is to use Hornby 8239 for ease of compatibility, but I am not sure how to wire them with the eLink.

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Like this

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Note that the R8239 is now 'not available for new supply' from Hornby, although stocks will still be available on retailer shelves. Can't say for sure, but I assume the R8239 is being discontinued.

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As mentioned earlier, I want to achieve fully automated and functioning block signalling, including a Train Order signal, and may be some interlocking signals too. Now what products do I need to acquire in order to achieve this (other than the signals of course).

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See my answer regarding Block (loco) Detection above. All of your wish list will not be deliverable until 'Loco Detection' is available** in the Hornby product line. The only third party signalling products currently integrated into RailMaster are the Train-Tech signalling products from their DS product range. These products need RailMaster ProPack and are not fully supported in the RailMaster 'Standard' edition. Note: these products are 'UK modern image' lamp based signals and not Semaphores.

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Note** subject to product features and functions at launch that are not currently documented.

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Also, I don’t want just signal simulation, I also want to control the trains through them – If the block ahead is occupied, the signal turns red and the train in the trailing block stops till the signal is yellow, if an interlocked signal is not properly interlocked the signal stays red and the train stops etc. What are my options for this? Any specific products that I should be looking at?

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See answer above to signalling and the previous answer for BD. I have seen this done using kit available today (and using your Digitrax control system), but NOT using Hornby products. I cannot tell you what non Hornby products to look at, as that is in breach of the Hornby forum rules.

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Has anyone automated Kaadee electromagnetic uncoupler (or similar products)using any stationary decoder and successfully operated it though RM?

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I have not seen anybody posting on this forum with details of such a solution.

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I am walking a fine line in trying to be honest in answering your questions. As a Hornby forum, it is expected that contributors positively promote Hornby products where they can.

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[Kaustav]

Thank you Chris for the detailed response - very helpful and much appreciated. I think this is exactly what I was looking for to start with.

It clearly seems that all my goals cannot be achieved with Hornby RM, even though I would love to take the advantage of its firendly user interface, ease of installation and very importantly, cost.

I think before I write it off completely, I need to research a bit more on the train-tech signals. If you are aware of any online document/material, please let me know.

Thank you,

Kaustav

[Kaustav]

A quick question out of curiosity, if Hornby RM does not offer any block detection in its current form, how does it automate train operations and provide necessary protection to trains? Also, I have seen some form of 'automation' with the train tech signals where it looks like they are denoting block occupancy - how does that work then?

Thank you,

Kaustav

[Chrissaf]

Train-Tech Documentation.

In the RailMaster forum section there are literally 10's of pages of posts regarding these signals. Unfortunately the forum search function is very restrictive and only searches for exact matches. Given that there are many ways users may have written Train-Tech, TrainTech, Train Tech are a few examples. Finding them all, may require a bit of tenacity on your part. I would suggest search for "Tech" as a first stab in the dark. Look out for posts written by "PJ model trains" and "St1ng4ay".

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Online Train-Tech signals documentation can be found here. http://www.train-tech.com/

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RailMaster Automation.

RailMaster train movement automation is quite a powerful feature, but at the same time unintelligent. It cannot currently detect loco location for the reasons I previously documented, thus if a point is set against the route (perhaps failed to fire) or another loco is on the route that shouldn't be there then the loco being controlled by the RailMaster program will carry on blindly and hit the obstacle.

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There are two ways to create a RailMaster loco movement automation. You record it in 'real time'. You set the 'record' function running and it logs every activity you issue via the RailMaster controller interface. Whether that being moving trains, operating points, signals and accessories (DCC controlled ones of course) or playing sound recordings such as 'station announcements' for example.

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As long as all the things being controlled are put back to their starting positions, then running the saved program again will replicate all the previously recorded train movements and DCC actions. There is one weakness with this system however. Given that 'Loco Detection' is not launched, the program can creep. If a loco is out of its starting position or just happens to move a little faster next time or stop a little slower or overshoot or stop short of its intended position, the positions of the locos can get out of sync with the recorded program.

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The second supported option is to manually write a script using the inbuilt RailMaster program editor. You can also use this to tidy up a program that was created using the 'record' feature.

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The resident expert on this forum for RailMaster programs is user "St1ng4ay" he has loads of them. He claims he rarely operates a loco manually these days. However, to get the full power of the RailMaster 'programmable automation' feature, will need 'Loco Detection' to be launched to make it more effective and foolproof.

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Train-Tech Block Occupancy.

The Train-Tech products that have built in 'Block Detection' is an overlay system from their SS rather than DS range. The 'Block Detection' is handled within the Train-tech products only and does not feed the occupancy information back to RailMaster. With these particular SS Train-Tech products (in their current firmware revision) the only thing that RailMaster can do, is manually override the signal to 'danger'. They are in effect 'stand alone' self contained products with minimal controller interaction.

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Want to know more then read through this previous thread. Note though that there are many pages to it, many with unsupported user speculation, plus a few off topic digressions. But there are also posts within it from the Train-Tech owner. So worth persevering to read it all.

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/traintech-new-signalling-product-launch/?p=1

[Fishmanoz]

If I could add a couple of things and be a little more positive than Chris on some things, noting I'm going to say things on a very low risk of being wrong, rather than 100% correct.

 

I can see no reason for not being able to run the 2 points systems you propose, there is simply no interaction between them in the setup arrangements, so can't see how one can possibly interfere with the other.

 

RM already contains specifics for a whole range of loco decoders, so you shouldn't have problems there.  That said, we know there are some issues, most likely due to some elements of non-compliance to NMRA.  Bachmann decoders in particular  have been known to be problematic. 

 

There is certainly content on magnetic uncouplers in the forum, try a search on uncoupler.

 

Have you downloaded the free 90 day trial version of RM and had a look at it, can do so without a controller.  You will then be able to see about signal capability and being able to switch points from signals and signals from points (ProPack only?).  See the link to the latest version at the top of this foru, operates in trial mode until you buy a license and activate it (£5 at Hattons).  You can also see a lot about how loco detection will work by including sensors in your layout.  And note the 3rd sticky post down in the RM forum with the full list of available commands. Chris was a little out with his time since first mention of LD, now coming up to 5 years, so don't hold your breath.

[Chrissaf]

5 years....time flies.

[96RAF]

If I can just add that RM along with Hornby's Sapphire decoder run 'automation' on time rather than distance somthe creep mentioned earlier is a pest. RM suggests that to 'normalise' this creep you should arrange to crash into the buffers every now and then to 'reset the clock' as it were.

 

The Sapphire decoder makes use of Railcom to feedback to a controller and has sequential auto-operations capability similar to the RM macro programs as well as ADCC (asymmetric DCC), but none of this has been exploited by RM as far as I know to date.

Rob

 

[Kaustav]

Have you downloaded the free 90 day trial version of RM and had a look at it, can do so without a controller.  You will then be able to see about signal capability and being able to switch points from signals and signals from points (ProPack only?).  See the link to the latest version at the top of this foru, operates in trial mode until you buy a license and activate it (£5 at Hattons).  You can also see a lot about how loco detection will work by including sensors in your layout.  And note the 3rd sticky post down in the RM forum with the full list of available commands. Chris was a little out with his time since first mention of LD, now coming up to 5 years, so don't hold your breath.

 

Sensors for loco detection is something that I am definitely interested to seem - yes, technically they cannot be called 'block' detection, but depending on what it is, it might be possible to simulate block detection. Do these sensors feed back to the RM and RM can take decisions based on it, or are they used just for simulation?

I was going through the latest RM manual and it says - " The example on the left shows the switching of a point on port 1 to the left (red) only when the signal is set to green (clear). When the signal is set to red (danger) the point will not be 83 switched. You can specify up to ten points or signals to switch as a result of switching a signal." - that is classic interlocking right there and I can think of a bunch of possibilities with this feature. The only thing that I have to figure out is how can I convert the British signals to American ones, despite the obvious mismatch, the Train-Tech signals are quite out of scale for HO - I am not sure if they just sell the circuits to incorporate other signals.

Yes, I think I will download the free version, but eventually, I think the only way to know the possibilities of the system is to buy the stuff!

 

Thank you for the details and encouragement, surely gives me enough push to at least figure it out in a sincere manner. :)

Kaustav

[Kaustav]

If I can just add that RM along with Hornby's Sapphire decoder run 'automation' on time rather than distance somthe creep mentioned earlier is a pest. RM suggests that to 'normalise' this creep you should arrange to crash into the buffers every now and then to 'reset the clock' as it were.

 

The Sapphire decoder makes use of Railcom to feedback to a controller and has sequential auto-operations capability similar to the RM macro programs as well as ADCC (asymmetric DCC), but none of this has been exploited by RM as far as I know to date.

Rob

 

 

Thanks Rob. The Sapphire is not a stationary decoder correct? As of now, I don't have anywhere to use them then since I already have DCC locos the way I need them (primarily BLI factory installed DCC, and Bachmann with ESU LokSound). Those locos have the 'capability' of doing what Sapphire does, but I am not sure they can do it when used with RM.

Will try to find out more.

 

Thank you,

Kaustav

[Fishmanoz]

I can sense a Desirable Feature for RM being generated out of this last discussion.

 

Kaustav, when you talk of RM LD "simulating" BD, you are into an area that has generated a lot of heat in the past in this forum, but not much movement.  The thing is that LD, as we understand it for RM, and BD are quite different in the way they operate.  Again, look at the 3rd sticky thread above in the forum at the list of commands available to better understand how LD is intended to operate. And remember that these commands are invoked only when a loco is detected at a sensor, with the detection able to determine the loco ID, its speed and its direction.

 

The final thing to get your head around with RM is that, except when a loco is detected at a sensor, RM has no idea where anything is, or where anything came from or where anything is going to.  In fact, in your layout diagram, you can remove any ordinary track piece and just lump all your points, signals, sensors and accessories somewhere at your convenience and RM will not know or care.  The only reason for drawing out the layout is so you can understand it, not so RM can.  Once you have your head around this, it is easy to see why you can't do BD but you can run your layout automatically with LD.  If only we had LD.

[hosh]

Long story short - if you are in any way serious about LD for your layout, give Hornby the widest berth possibe - they haven't got a clue.

 

Better put, they never had a clue and have given no reason to think they might now. For example, those ridiculous commands are still stickied here and they still have yet to release anything. And this latter fact is probably merciful for both their reputation and their blindly loyal customers. :)

[Fishmanoz]

See what I mean Kaustav ........ heat has already been generated.  Then, if you believe the only way to run a railway, model or 12" to the foot, is to use BD, then hosh's comments may well be justified.  But if you are open minded to other possible ways to do it, then RM with LD may be worth a look.  But don't hold your breath.

[Kaustav]

Well, I already ordered an eLink and RM combo from Hattons since I got an unboxed version at a lucrative price (I still have to pay for the RM Pro - any idea how much that costs?).

I am all for elaborate and fantastic automation through BD, Transponding and costly software like TrainController but I am more interested to play with trains! My current Layout is a less than 18 sq ft N scale layout and it's past 6 years I still have important things to complete, so I have to be realistic about time, plus money. My layout is going to be a simple switching layout with hardly 30 minutes of full operation time at scale speed if I do all the maneuvers - so I think getting to BD and transponding and elaborate software is an overkill. That's where eLink and RM come in. Again, I have my Digitrax and LocoNet plan standby if this thing fails miserably for my set-up (remember, I am not going to run a single Hornby product on my layout!

Coming back to LD, I was reading through the latest RM manual. and on page 39 they say:

"In one piece of track you will need to attach a Loco Detection system track sensor. For each loco being profiled you will need to add a small reflective strip to the underside of the loco, ensuring that it is between 1 and 4mm from the track sensor. You can use self-adhesive pads to bring the strip closer to the sensor. When you have connected the Loco Detection system module to a free USB port on your computer and configured it (see the separate Loco Detection system PDF guide for details) you are ready to begin auto profiling."

This is very specific with 3 photographs (The part is related to automatic loco profiling for non-Hornby loco. Question is how can they provide such specific instructions in the manual without any possible way of achieving it? Did it appear in the older RM manuals? Are there any 3rd party products that may have been referenced here?

I am not starting my actual layout till about 2nd quarter of next year (this year is for research and evaluation only while I complete my existing layout), so even if LD comes to life by end of next year, I think I will be more than happy!

[Yelrow]

Kaustav, Hi, re your last paragraph, you, and many long suffering others. john

[Fishmanoz]

Kaustav, those paras have been in the manual for at least 12 months.

 

I wrote this about LD just on 2 years ago:

 

 For a start, the LD system consists of controllers (max 2), detectors (48 per controller?) and tags (forget how many allowed to be active in the system but at least 100).

 

To set the system up:

 

-  Controllers are connected via USB and their USB port number is configured in RM.  I'm also going to assume that controller 1 will have detector output port numbers 1-48 and controller 2 numbers 49-96 (assuming I have the number of detectors per controller correct)

 

-  Detectors are placed on your Trackplan and will need to be programmed with a detector number to correspond to the controller output port to which you connect them ie. a number between 1 and 96 and presumably the controller number must be specified too.  Now to state the not so obvious to some - they will have no idea where they are on the Trackplan, only you will know that, and they will have no idea if they are adjacent to a point or a signal or any other accessory, although you will be able to set them up such that they take account of and set the states of particular signals and points which will likely be adjacent to them but don't have to be.

 

-  ID Tags - these will be connected to the underside of locos and configured to that loco in the Loco Setup window ( question now being asked by PJ - what about those on tenders and last carriages?  Answer - I have no idea)

 

So that's your LD system all set up and waiting to be used, nothing more and nothing less.  Have I got it right?

 

What does it do?  Detectors read the IDs of tags passing over them and send this information to RM.  That's all I believe it does.  Am I right?  See next.

 

What does RM do?  It interprets the ID tag as belonging to a particular loco and it notes the locos speed and direction from the throttle for that loco. Now there is an alternative possible method for determining speed and direction here - the detector reads the speed and direction of the tag passing over it.  I'm not sure which and it doesn't matter, all we need to know is that the system knows these 2 parameters when a detection is made.

 

Is that all RM does?  I believe in the first instance yes.  Am I right?  But first read on before answering.

 

What do you do?  You program configuration information into each detector. You can make things happen to all locos passing over, to only a group of locos, or to only individual locos.  You can make the locos stop or change speed or continue on.  You can also make these actions conditional on the state of particular signals (and the direction a point is set - can't remember just now?).  And you can also have the detections set the state of signals and the direction of points.  And finally, you can cause the detections to run programs you have written.  All these things in combination have the power to completely change what is happening on your entire layout, based on just one detection.  If you can do that with one detection, imagine what you can do with all of them.

 

But have I got it right?  Let me know.

 

Finally, how would Ray's suggestion work (Ray suggested a program command to simulate a detection at a sensor).  All that would be needed would be the facility to specify that a particular tag has been detected at a particular detector.  And maybe even be able to write that instruction into a program, not just do it directly on screen?  And the point of being able to?  Now you can test that all of the setup programming you have written into that detector will work, and how it will work.

[Fishmanoz]

Kaustav, for at least the last 2 years, as well as all of the commands having already been written into RM, we've had part numbers and descriptions for all of the hardware as I've mentioned in my post above.  However, just before it was believed ready to release, we were also told that someone had had a lightbulb moment on some different and better way of doing things, and the implication was that Hornby were waiting on a patent on it.  That unfortunately is the last we have heard.

[hosh]

Kaustav, for at least the last 2 years, as well as all of the commands having already been written into RM, we've had part numbers and descriptions for all of the hardware as I've mentioned in my post above.  However, just before it was believed ready to release, we were also told that someone had had a lightbulb moment on some different and better way of doing things, and the implication was that Hornby were waiting on a patent on it.  That unfortunately is the last we have heard.

 

Let me translate this a little.

 

They took a look at some of the conversations that were taking place in these forums, and at some of the things some of us derived after finally getting our head around how utterly absurd their "system" was going to be, and then they pulled the plug.

 

For example, the system had no memory. So if a train stopped at sensor A, there was no way for it to be restarted when the signals ahead of it cleared because the system just immediately forgot all about that train as soon as it stopped it in the first place.

 

Just as bad, the system had no read ahead ability whatsoever and thus couldn't even prevent collisions between trains - the #1 priority of any automation system.

 

It looks like the CEO probably has all his cousins on the payroll. :)