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Automatic Control of Model Railroad

Nossa_Nossa

By Nossa_Nossa
in Hornby DCC

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Nossa_Nossa Newbie

Nossa_Nossa

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Posted
Hi, I'm working on a project of automatic control of model railroad that still needs to be built. The objective is to build custom railroad to match our criteria and control the movement of (only) locomotives via PC. As we are beginners in world of model

railroads there is a lot of questions that we need answer to :)

As we figured, the easiest way to do it is with DCC. But there is problem with selecting all of components needed to build it. Is there a difference between DDC Ready and DCC Fitted locomotives?

We need some sensors to localize locomotives on track and I can't find any on Hornby website. The main problem is connection to PC. Hornby DCC Elite Controller has the USB connection to PC, but is there a possibility to send commands to controller from our

application, NOT Railmaster? How to know that all components match together? Does Hornby have all that we need? Is there any other better companies? Any suggestions/advices?

Thank you!
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ernie03 Apprentice

ernie03

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To answer the easiest question first, DCC Ready usually means that there is a socket in the loco, into which you can put a DCC decoder. DCC Fitted usually means the DCC decoder is already fitted into the loco.

There are many ways of achieving what

you require. Some will require a significant amount of development while other approaches will rely upon existing software and hardware. The latter will obviously get you there quicker and easier but will require co-operation on the part of the manufacturers

of the systems you may wish to use.

Assuming you wish to use a Hornby DCC system to control the locomotives, then why not use their existing pc software (Railmaster) to automate the Elite controller. I have no knowledge of Railmaster so I have no idea

of whether Hornby divulge or are prepared to divulge API's (application program interfaces) or even whether they exist. I assume you must be familiar with the concept of API's. For this info you must speak to Hornby.

If you insist on NOT using Railmaster,

then only Hornby can provide the s/w interface spec to drive Elite. Even if you can get this, writing your own 'railmaster' will be a significant task. Having produced process control s/w many years ago, I have a good idea of the extent of significant effort

that will be required.

As regards sensors, a similar question was posed in this forum only hours before. Look at that. That supplier should provide info on s/w to respond to their sensors. Having picked this info up, you will still need to be able to

interface to railmaster (or your equivalent).

I suspect you will need an experienced s/w engineer, with reasonable h/w knowledge, to provide detailed info to get you going.

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Augustus Caesar Mentor

Augustus Caesar

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Hi Nossa Nossa

Hornby will offer most of the things you need to do a full DCC system. The following points may help you in your choices...

DCC Ready locos are those you buy without the decoder fitted which is necessary to run any loco on

a DCC system. DCC Fitted simply means the loco has a decoder fitted when you buy it. The reason for non fitted locos is so that a modeller can pick any type of decoder (within certain parameters) that will perform to the individual needs of the modeller. Hornby

do two types. 4 function and 21 function chips. Rather than me detail them here just look on Hornby's main pages under DCC and they are easily found in there. Sensors from Hornby are not ready for sale yet and may be at least a few months away according to

my sources. Other companies may do these but you will need to search for them as we cannot promote other companies goods on here in accordance with forum rules.

Sending commands to the system with another application as opposed to RailMaster should

be fairly easy to accomplish via USB or even the Express Net socket on the Elite. I can't be more specific on this one.

You won't know how components match until you decide which ones you want. Once you have a possible component in mind come back and

ask about it. If it is from another company other forums exist for you to ask there.

Type model railway manufacturers or dcc controllers into your search engine to find other suppliers etc.

Maybe someone else can add to or clarify any of the

above for you but hopefully it gives you a start.
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ernie03 Apprentice

ernie03

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Funny, this has happened only several hours ago on a similar subject thread. It does take time

to check what one has written and hence overlap is easily possible. Good to see I am not the only insomniac here. :)
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Nossa_Nossa Newbie

Nossa_Nossa

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Thank you for your answer!

The main reason for not using Railmaster is that, as we can see, it "automates" on a principle of recording time slices of some action and putting this time slices in time sequence. We need some feedback included (sensors?)

to have automatic control. When train arrives to some part of track and there is possible conflict with another train, one of them must be stopped. So, every train does it's own path, but when there is a conflict some actions must be taken. I can't see this

done by Railmaster.

We found that there is an open source project Rocrail that communicates with Elite controller, so there is a possibility to do our work within Rocrail, but this still needs to be checked. It also has some kind of support for sensors.

How

to know how many boosters, command stations etc. is needed for our track? Is there some kind of "recipe"?

Thanks
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wiggy25 Contributor

wiggy25

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It looks like you are new to all of this!
I would do some surfing to find out just how much is already out there.
Everything you want to do is already being done.

There are many DCC controllers that you could use, along with feedback sensors,

be they current detecting/IR detection or the type that Hornby are working on I believe are RFID type.

Again most of the DCC controllers will require some type of Feedback module connected to these feedback sensors, which in turn process the signals

and feed them back into the PC so the software can work out what is happening.

If you don't want to wait for Hornby's RFID feedback system then you could use the Hornby Elite with the famous Train Controller software(RR&CO) which is very expensive!!!
Then

use LDT feedback units, which run on the S88 bus.
RR&CO will send signals to the Elite to carry out operations while the LDT feedback units will detect locos etc on the track and report this back to the software.

You can only have one command station

connected to the layout!
As for boosters etc, how many trains do you want to run at once , and how big will the layout be?

If you google Mckinley railway that will give you everything you need to know!!!



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Nossa_Nossa Newbie

Nossa_Nossa

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It will be around 5(2x2.5) m^2 of surface. We are planning to fit as much trains (only locos) as we can in it. How many locomotives can be connected to one booster? One booster on 10 locomotives is little too much? I can't find anywere how much current

does one locomotive need.


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wiggy25 Contributor

wiggy25

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When I've been running my locos depending on make and model the current draw varies.

Anything from 0.06amps to 0.5 amps and above.
The 4amp power supply of the Elite and many other systems can run say 4 newish locos maybe one with sound, although

it could be more!
I've not actually done any serious tests to see exactly how much current each loco draws.
I would be tempted to not both with a booster initially, just connect everything up to the one controller and run everything.

If things

start to slow down or stop then you need a booster.
Then you can work out how you will split the layout into "zones" or "districts"
One district will be powered by the DCC controller, the other district will be powered by the booster.
Yes each district

will need to be completely isolated from one another, download and read the instruction manual for the Hornby booster it does explain all of this and it's the same for adding any booster as far as I'm aware.

Once this is sorted out you can then look

into your feedback sensors as these all need to be in a block section with each one being isolated from one another.

With this little lot in mind it makes sense to get the baseboard cut and then lay the track, from there you can work out everything

else as you go BEFORE doing any scenery.

Have fun.

Cheers

Ian
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Nossa_Nossa Newbie

Nossa_Nossa

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Thank Ian.

If I understand correctly what you said one sensor can detect occupancy of one isolated block, and one block is one booster, right?

The problem is that we need to order EVERYTHING needed from online WITHOUT knowing ANYTHING about

railroad modelling, and reading different materials there are still blank spots :) It would be easier to order something to start with and then add all the other things needed but that's not an option :)

I can't find anywhere tips for controlling Elite

with PC? Are there any? Rocrail can command the Elite via USB, but there is no data on the type of exchanged messages.

Would it be ok to use 1 Elite + 1 Booster with 8 RailRoad BR 'Mallard' Class A4 Locomotives and 10 meters of track?

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stevecamden Collaborator

stevecamden

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wiggy25 Contributor

wiggy25

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You are always going to have problems.
You have no knowledge of this and then want to buy everything you "may" need in one go!!!!
I would not recommend that you buy everything in one go and then hope for the best.

You are asking us questions

that you don't know the answers to yourself, I'm really sorry but you need to read lots more information and understand what you actually want.
You may be able to download the instruction manual for train controller by RR&CO that might give you information

on how to make up the block sections and the best place to locate the feedback sensors.

The Elite doesn't say anything about PC control as RailMaster was not available when the Elite first came out.

No one Block isn't ONE booster!!!!
You could

use one Booster to control one block and that block could be large or small depending on how many locos you will have running in that block at any one time.
I can't say if a booster and the Elite will be enough to run the locos you've said, you would need

to run each loco and see what the current draw is on each loco as they will probably all be different, I'm guessing it would be more than enough though.

As for feedback sensors, (which ever type you use) this is different, you would need to chop the

layout into smaller block sections with each section being big enough to hold the loco and it's train plus a bit.
Then the last wagon or coach may need to have a resistor soldered to the wheels so that the current detector if that's the type you use, will

detect that there is a vehicle still in that block.

As for feedback, few DCC systems actually incorporate a feedback bus, so you would still need a feedback bus for the feedback sensors to connect into, which then also feed into the PC.

As a

note the Hornby RailMaster software will only work with the sensors that Hornby are developing.

I've not actually built a fully automated layout with feedback sensors so I can't help you much more.
Sorry if it's not what you want to hear but there

is so much more to automation and you've already admitted that you've got no knowledge!!!!!!

I have no idea on how automation works on Rocrail or JMRI as I've never done it.
You could check out RMweb forum where there are a few who have got everything

set up for full automation.

Good luck you really are going to need it.

Cheers

Ian
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Gregd99 Rising Star

Gregd99

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guys,
there are many options for computer control of layouts.

as mentioned recordinmg "timed sequences" of commands has many limitations. It is however, still an interesting way to get a feel for automated running. I think a demo version of railmaster

is availabe for free. why not give it a go?

I agree that some form of location detection is essential for any moderately sophisticated control. Rocrail has been mentioned and has also been discuess on teh forum previously.

Personally I use JMRi

and have had reasonable success running 2-3 trains automatically on a 9'x4' layout. the biggest challenge is to STOP trains as required to in relatively small spaces.

search teh forum for JMRI or rocrail and thereis a lot of info.
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wiggy25 Contributor

wiggy25

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Steve,

The problem you have is the giggle pin falling off the chuckle button, which is frying the schrazzler valve. :-)

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