R3371 - Mallard

[JSLS]

Hi all,

Beginer here.

We have a dcc set but my son has been given a 'dcc ready' R3371 Mallard. I understand that we need a dcc decoder, this can either be a Sapphire Decoder R8245 or the Digital Locomotive Decoder R8249.

Which one is recommended? Will we need anything else?

 

Thinking that DCC ready meant, it came with a dcc chip, I have already bought a TTS Sound Decoder - A4 Class R8107 in preparation for this Christmas gift. However our R3371 model does not have a cable between the engine and the tender. ?!

What extra cable 'stuff' do we need? ie whats the SKU number for the cable and socket (to slot the TSS into)? Does Hornby provide any clear instructions? if possible could someone please help with a link, I have tried and failed to find anything.

Also, if I remove the weights in the tender and install the little speaker in their pplace, how do I re-install the weights? do I use sellotape to hold them down? again recommendation please.

Thanks and hope all of you had a lovely Christmas!

Jakob and Linus.

 

 

[96RAF]

This is how I did it...

http://myweb.cytanet.com.cy/honnor/page15.html

Rob

[Chrissaf]

There you go JS&LS, a combination of my detailed background overview info, and Rob's 'Step by Step' pictorial guide should have you sorted. Subject to your soldering and modification skills being up to it.

[Chrissaf]

You wrote:

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I understand that we need a dcc decoder, this can either be a Sapphire Decoder R8245 or the Digital Locomotive Decoder R8249.

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and you also wrote

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I have already bought a TTS Sound Decoder - A4 Class R8107 in preparation for this Christmas gift.

.

You only need to fit ONE DCC Decoder in a loco. The TTS Sound Decoder is a fully functioning motor control decoder in its own right (it just happens to have a sound function included on it as well), So you do not need either a R8249 (standard) or a R8245 (Sapphire) decoder as well as the R8107 TTS decoder.

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This online Hornby Service Sheet is the nearest I could find for your R3371 Model. The comments below are made on the basis that the innards of your loco are a fairly close match to those shown on the Service Sheet drawings. My online research indicates that R3371 is DCC Ready with an 8 pin socket. If your model has no 4 wire plug and socket wiring between the loco and the tender as you have stated, then the 8 pin socket must be in the loco with the motor.

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The R3371 Mallard Loco is not designed to accept the TTS sound decoder system as a straight forward 'plug-it-in' option. Firstly the decoder socket in the R3371 is in the loco (see "My online research" comment in para above), whereas TTS ready steam locomotives have the decoder socket and a prepared speaker mount in the Tender. I will give you the wiring part numbers further below, but be aware that these wiring parts are not designed for your loco, thus you will need to make modifications as necessary to make them fit. In my opinion it would be easier to put the TTS decoder in the loco where the socket is, and deal with the speaker as a separate modification.

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Two options for the TTS speaker:

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1. Don't use the TTS supplied speaker at all. Instead purchase a small sugar cube speaker and fit that with the decoder in the loco body shell. Search posts made by forum member "Howbiman" for details about the sugar cube speaker as he has posted often about them. Find a post published by HB with his "Howbiman" user name. Click his 'user name' and all his previous posts will be listed in published date order. Then it is just a matter of looking through them for the 'sugar cube' speaker information.
2. Alternatively, put the TTS decoder in the loco where the socket is already there for it and put the TTS supplied speaker (if you can) in the Tender and re-route the speaker wires (2) from the loco to the Tender. The issue with this, is that the TTS speaker wires are too short for this and will need extending. You could use 2 of the 4 wires that the parts below provide you with. Note that the socket part is soldered to a PCB, the corresponding mounting for this small PCB is not part of your tender design, thus that would need to be a custom design and installation by your good self.

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EDIT: Option 2) above is the option for which Rob has provided a 'step by step' pictorial guide via a clickable link in his reply directly below this one. Do note however, that replacing the TTS supplied speaker with a 'sugar cube' one may still be a worthwhile small additional expense as there are very many posts on this forum reporting very high failure rates for the TTS Speaker provided by Hornby. Plus following Option 1) with the 'sugar cube' simplifies the installation, as no additional wiring is needed between the Loco and Tender.

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Loco to Tender 4 wire plug and socket parts.

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X6113

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/tender-loco-connector.html

/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/x/6/x6113.jpg

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and

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X9958

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/electric-tender-connector.html

/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/x/9/x9958.jpg

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It has been reported that if you buy the X6113 that the packet also contains the X9958, but there is nothing in the Hornby documentation that confirms this.

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If you do fit the above connectors (or have them already fitted to other locos). Then you might be interested in this special plug extraction tool to prevent snapping delicate wires.

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X6468

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/extractor-tool-for-steam-loco-tender-plug.html

/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/x/6/x6468.jpg

 .

Additionally, you wrote:

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Does Hornby provide any clear instructions?

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No sorry, Hornby do not provide any instructions for fitting TTS to explicit loco models. The instructions provided with the TTS Decoder are generic in nature and just give some basic guidance. Unfortunately, except for later models in the post TTS era where the upgrade path to TTS has been built into the model at the design stage (as said before your R3371 model pre-dates TTS) the instructions are minimal and you are left to work out a solution for yourself. Other members on here can give you their suggestions on how they did it, but there are no 'hard-n-fast' written guidelines.

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You also wrote:

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Thinking that DCC ready meant, it came with a dcc chip

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"DCC Ready" just means that the loco has a socket which is "Ready" to accept a DCC Decoder that can be plugged into it. When the loco is still in its "DCC Ready" configuration, the socket has a 'pass through' blanking plug fitted, to pass through the electrical connections between wheel pickups and motor. In essence, a "DCC Ready" locomotive is still technically an Analogue DC one.

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Only Hornby loco boxes marked "DCC Fitted" come with a factory installed decoder. Thus only "DCC Fitted" locos are actually true Digital locos regardless of what might be written on the box. Think about it, not only is a "DCC Ready" loco sold at a cheaper price to reflect the missing decoder. Many users want to install their preferred 'brand and model' of decoder and don't want the Hornby one. It is cheaper for Hornby to 'market' one loco, than to 'market' both a "DCC Ready" one as well as a "DCC Fitted" variant. These days, the only "DCC Fitted" locos that Hornby tend to market are the TTS ones.

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NOTE to JS&LS.

This reply of mine is long and contains images. I would advise you NOT to use the 'White Arrow in Blue' button. This is NOT a 'Reply to this post' button. If you do click the blue button, my whole long reply will be duplicated and any text that you may add will not appear straight away as the images in my reply will trigger the 'image needs authorisation' routine.

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Instead scroll to the bottom of the page and write your reply in the big empty 'Reply to this post' text box and click the green 'Reply' button to save it.

[morairamike]

Just to make it clear, i bought 5 X6113 and 5 X9958 leads and socket and all the X6113 came with the socket in the bag and all of the X9958 came with the lead in the bag along with a screw.

Buy a sugar cube speaker and fit it in the loco under the chimney, that way you don't  need X6113 or X9958 so save your money there. When you fit the sugar cube unsolder the original speaker at the speaker not the decoder. The sugar cube needs to be fitted in a small sound box, some come fitted some come with it separate from the speaker. Unlike a conventional speaker sugar cubes are electro static and go onto the box with the silver side and contacts up. Make sure the seam is well sealed

[JSLS]

Dear Chrissaf, RAF96 and morairamike,

 

Thanks so much for the response above and excellent comments. Some progress / actions so far...

 

So yesterday I removed the platic casing and removed the little dummy board and inserted the TTS R8107. Switched the controller (select R8213) to address 03 and the train ran! albeit in a very jerky / staggered way, this happens particularly at low speeds. Ran it in total for 5-10min, no and change in terms of performance or improvment in terms of jerky movement.

 

Then decided to test the sound, tried functions F01 to F08. worked ok.

 

I then ran the little steamy we got from the dcc set R1126, works fine and not jerky, even at very low speed.

 

The Mallard then went back on, but as I was moving the engine (still without its casing) I felt that the decoder was extremely hot to the touch and had a slight electronic burning smell. Ran it for a few laps at slow speed and eventually the engine stoped by itself. At this point the sound were not working and the train did not respond to the controller.

 

Today I ran it again. First at full speed, no jerking, then at low speed, quite jerky and the enigne eventually stopped dead. Sound not working. Decoder again very hot.

 

So, does this mean issues with the decoder, controller or is there an issue with the actual Mallard model?

 

Again, would appreciate some quick thoughts/advise.

 

 

When the above have been resolved, I probably will install the little sugar cube speaker, as the speaker with the TTS decoder is HUGE. Not scared of a little soldering.  😆

 

 

Jakob and Linus

 

 

EDIT:

I know this sounds crazy but I just tried it.

 

When the engine stutters to a halt, i then blow on the small black metal dome section on the dcc, the train starts up again. Sound like a case of over heating...

 

If I snip off the speaker and install the casing I worried that the heat will affect the plastic enginbe casing, yes it fels that hot.

 

[Chrissaf]

Can't comment on your TTS heat issues as I don't use them. RAF96(Rob) and Howbiman (HB) use them a lot, so wait to see what they have to say about it. It doesn't sound right to me, some warm heat maybe, but hot enough to burn fingers, melt plastic and shut down the decoder is not normal. Prolonged testing in those conditions may result with the decoder being permanently damaged beyond repair.

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EDIT: An afterthought. The TTS decoder has limited motor power capability. From memory, I think the documentation states 800mA MAX (short duration peaks) with a running max average of 500mA. Whereas the typical non TTS decoder supports 1Amp or sometimes more. Older locos can easily draw more than the TTS decoder is able to supply, particularly if their motor magnets start to weaken from old age. Motor magnets can be remagnetised by specialist companies to reduce their current consumption. Anyway back to the point I am trying to make. If you revert the loco back to DC Analogue i.e remove the TTS decoder and refit the blanking plug, you could then do a 'stall current' check (you will need a multi-meter capable of measuring at least 1.5 - 2Amps to do this). The 'Stall Current' test procedure is documented on this link:

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http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html#NORMAL

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You would be looking for a 'stall current' measurement that is less than 800mA and a normal current significantly less than 500mA. These figures need to be met or bettered to make fitting a TTS decoder a viable option for your loco.

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Regarding the jerkiness. This is a well documented TTS decoder issue discussed many times on the forum. It can usually be fixed by editing some specific CV settings. The problem for you is that your Select controller is basic and cannot perform these CV setting adjustments

[Howbi]

@JS&LS..........the TTS decoder should not be getting that hot.........did you give the loco a running in period of 30 mins in each direction on DC first to free up the mechanism?........HB

[Chrissaf]

PS - If you haven't got one, you can get cheap multimeters to measure the 'stall current' from as little as £2.59 delivered on eBay. With many meters selling for less than £6

[JSLS]

PS - If you haven't got one, you can get cheap multimeters to measure the 'stall current' from as little as £2.59 delivered on eBay. With many meters selling for less than £6

My current meter do not do 'series' metering. Will go and get one from Screwfix tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the help so far.

 

Jakob

[JSLS]

@JS&LS...........did you give the loco a running in period of 30 mins in each direction on DC first to free up the mechanism?........HB

 

No.. I had no idea that you needed to do this. Apart from loosening the mechanics, is there anything else you should do with a new engine before.

 

Sorry this might be obvious to most of you guys, but by 'DC' you mean running it on a select digital controller via a digital power track OR on a fully analogue track and controller (like R8250)?

 

Thanks again,

Jakob

[Fishmanoz]

As it is DCC Ready, it is a relatively new loco and so should not draw more than 250mA in good fettle.

 

Running in DC means putting the blanking plug back in and running with an analog DC controller such as you have mentioned. Doesn’t matter what track connection you use, DCC ones work DC ok, not the other way around.

 

You might also oil the points in the maintenance sheet with a very minimum of suitable loco oil (not  3 in 1).  If you can see it, you’ve used too much.  Use a little on the end of an unbent paper clip.

 

And to correct Chris‘s memory, TTS can handle 800mA continuous, 1 Amp for short periods total running load incl lights etc on the function outputs. That should be more than enough for the Mallard, although clearly isn’t just now. 

[Chrissaf]

Sorry, I am going to have to reinstate my memory as being correct on this occasion. Below is an extract from the TTS installation guide that states that 500mA is the maximum continuous motor running current that is supported. Granted, this value is for the motor and the total current is 800mA for the motor inclusive of 300mA for functions (from the TTS product page in the Hornby Shop). In this decoder overheating scenario, it is the motor current specification IMO that is the important factor.

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However that said, the fact that the TTS decoder is getting excessively hot, still points to the loco drawing too much current for the decoder to handle irrespective of the written decoder specifications.

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/media/tinymce_upload/22173301f467089e290a9c80f06cf644.jpg

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@JS&LS

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Sorry this might be obvious to most of you guys, but by 'DC' you mean running it on a select digital controller via a digital power track OR on a fully analogue track and controller (like R8250)?

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The 'Stall Current' test has to be done with a FULL DC Analogue power source, not using your Select. I'm not sure if the R8250 has a high enough current output to obtain accurate results. Look at the label on the power pack that goes with your R8250. That should give the current output specification. If it is the same one as the image below, it is only capable of supplying 500mA (yellow highlight). To do a 'Stall Test' you need a controller output of at least 1Amp, preferably more. Not ideal, but at a push you could potentially use any general purpose power pack that is providing a regulated output of 12 volts DC with a current rating of 1 to 2 Amps in the absence of anything more appropriate.

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Just stating the obvious here, but do ensure that you do  NOT connect a DC supply to anything that is in contact with any DCC control equipment at the same time, even if that DCC equipment is turned off - this includes DCC Accessory Decoders that might be connected to the track and should be disconnected before running the 'Stall Test'.

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/media/tinymce_upload/50ee207427276b3feb6cf3ac1044e741.jpg

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[Fishmanoz]

Always happy to be proven wrong Chris, your memory more correct than mine.

 

So having just read the Class 47 manual again, I find;

 

- Motor current, continuous with overload projection - 500mA

 

- Motor current peak - 1 Amp

 

- Decoder max - 800mA incl 3 function loads of not more than 100mA each.

 

Still should be more than enough for the Mallard in good fettle.

[Chrissaf]

I agree that on paper, the Mallard as a 'DCC Ready' model SHOULD be totally happy with a TTS decoder specification. The only way to be sure of where the issue is, is to do the 'Stall & Normal Running Test'. If the results of the currents drawn are within spec, then the there must be something not quite right with the internal electronics of the decoder.

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It seems at the moment that every third post in the DCC sub-forum relates to a TTS decoder in some form or other. If its not the speaker, its the CVs, if its not the CVs its the jerkiness, if its not the jerkiness it is something else wrong or completely dead. So why not excessive overheating with 'within spec' current draws.

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A PS to my earlier reply.

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JS& LS, I should have added that using the R8250 just for the purpose of 'running-in' and 'testing' the smooth running mechanics of DC loco before it is chipped for DCC is perfectly OK. Just make sure that all the DCC equipment (including Accessory Decoders) is disconnected before attaching and powering up the R8250.

[Fishmanoz]

Shoulds are all very well, clearly not the case here.  After a service and running in, stall current test definitely needed.