Electrofrog point error

[Rich53]

Hi,

recently one of my points has a problem. Every time a loco lands on point there's a short , error appears on Elite Controller. Disconnect power and turn Elite on again.

im using DCC cobalt ip digital point motor, and the motor does work on moving direction.

the points has isolation joiners, checked wiring,taken wires off motor and reinstalled wires again.

using meter to check power it's the frog that's not live.

any ideas folks, don't want to remove point, as it's all ballasted.

Richard from Western Australia.

[96RAF]

Richard

No need to turn off the power and restart the Elite, just hit ESC after you have removed the shorting loco.

 

I have no experience of either electrofrogs or Cobalts so I can’t help there unfortunately, but we have knowledgeable folk in those areas who will comment soon.

Rob

[2e0dtoeric]

I've not used either, either! BUT check very carefully that there isn't a whisker of wire or metal debris bridging one of the insulated joiners or between the moving blades and fixed tracks of the point.

If you have a multimeter, try to identify the exact place that is shorting - and shouldn't be.

Is it just one loco that triggers the overload, or any and all of your fleet. If it is just one loco, check the wheel back-to-backs, in case one has slipped.

[Chrissaf]

Two assumptions as you haven't made these clear in your post.

.

Assumption 1 that you are using the Cobalt inbuilt contacts to switch the power to the Electrofrog - please confirm.

.

Assumption 2 that this point was working absolutely fine until recently and not a new installation - please confirm.

.

Tests for you to perform that will narrow down what is wrong.

.

Test 1 - run the affected loco that generates the short through the point via BOTH routes through the point. Does the short still occur through BOTH paths or only one of them. If so, which one - please confirm.

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Test 2 - (assuming assumption 1 above is correct) disconnect the frog wire from the Cobalt point motor and perform test 1 again. Do the results change from a 'short' circuit to an 'open circuit' on either both or one of the paths.

.

Test 1 is checking to see if the Cobalt switch contacts are actually operating. Test 2 is checking to see if there is an external short outside of the Cobalt switch contacts. So it is important that you document the results of the tests in detail back here.

[Flashbang]

Hi,

If you have used the Cobalt terminal 3 to feed the frog, then try swapping around the two DCC input wires on Terminals 1 & 2, then retest.  

If you have used the change-over contacts for frog feeding - T 4, 5 & 6, Frog wire connects to 6 and DCC to 4 & 5. Try swapping over the wires in 4 & 5 and retest. 

Do not use Terminals 7, 8 & 9 for feeding anything, as they are for switch or Push button operation of the motor only.

[Fishmanoz]

You say recently a problem.  Can we assume it worked previously?  If so, was anything changed around the time it stopped working?

[Rich53]

Thanks to all for replies,

Well I'll try to explain in a bit more detail to some of the questions/ responses.

The turnout worked ok until recently, the only things that have changed are , cutting out and installing Peco turntable and ballasting track, but note the point has no ballast yet only the tracks leading up to it.

The multi meter shows the frog area has NO power.

Im only using one loco at the moment, a 062 N2 tank, no problems on the other 14 points I have operating.

Have disconnected and reattached the wires to the Cobalt motor, as previously said the motor does still change direction on the turnout .

The connections I'm using as directed by DCC Concepts literature terminals 1and 2 for power, terminal 3 for frog, this all DID work.

Chris, can you tell me how to test cobalt motor to see if the problem lies there,

As to Flashbangs suggestion, trying other terminals on Colbalt moto, will give this ago .In the meantime I'll await response from you gentleman, not do anything just in case I bugger it up!

Thanks again gents.

Richard.

PS, if I get out of this problem, I'll ask another, the turntable!!! Elite operates the turntable ok , the said loco arrives no problem, Departure onto track sheds a short occurs.

[Rich53]

Sorry forgot, Chris the loco shorts out on all entrances to the point, in other words, dead!

[Rich53]

Well Chris, did as you said, disconnected frog wire , NO short ,no error comes on Elite.

[Rich53]

Taking all the responses into account, it looks as if the switch contact part of the Cobalt point motor has gone faulty.

.

To test, then follow Flashbangs advice which I expand upon below.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/bf9ff2dee9dd3f0eed32740d69cff2b8.jpg

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Test 1, reverse the wires on terminals 1 & 2 and test again.

.

Test 2, connect another DCC input connection to terminals 4 & 5 such that terminal 1 is common with terminal 4 and terminal 2 is common with terminal 5. Connect the frog wire to terminal 6 and test again.

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Test 3, if test 2 fails then reverse the wires on terminals 4 & 5 and test again.

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If none of these tests effect a solution then consider the Cobalt motor as being faulty.

.

If Test 1 clears the issue, then you must have done something somewhere at sometime to cause the DCC input to the Cobalt to be reversed (since it was previously working).

.

If Test 2 on its own (or in combination with Test 3) clears the issue. Then the primary frog switching contacts (Terminals 1, 2 & 3) have got some kind of obscure fault.

Thanks Chris, will try this out, and let everyone know how it goes, fingers crossed.Just another thing if there's a problem with the frog wire connection,the frog wire itself, is there another way to connect another wire to the point. Just a thought.

[St1ngr4y]

 

PS, if I get out of this problem, I'll ask another, the turntable!!! Elite operates the turntable ok , the said loco arrives no problem, Departure onto track sheds a short occurs.

Hi Richard,

There are threads on the Forum regarding the setting up of a turntable to run on DCC.

The short possible answer is that you have

(a)  removed the brass contacts at the ends of the turntable bridge rails

and

(b)  wired the shed tracks to your DCC bus.

 

If this is the case, you can try simply reversing the wires on the shed track, provided that track ends without rejoining the main layout.

 

Ray

[Chrissaf]

Taking all the responses into account, it looks as if the switch contact part of the Cobalt point motor has gone faulty.

.

To test, then follow Flashbangs advice which I expand upon below.

.

/media/tinymce_upload/bf9ff2dee9dd3f0eed32740d69cff2b8.jpg

.

Test 1, reverse the wires on terminals 1 & 2 and test again.

.

Test 2, connect another DCC input connection to terminals 4 & 5 such that terminal 1 is common with terminal 4 and terminal 2 is common with terminal 5. Connect the frog wire to terminal 6 and test again.

.

Test 3, if test 2 fails then reverse the wires on terminals 4 & 5 and test again.

.

If none of these tests effect a solution then consider the Cobalt motor as being faulty.

.

If Test 1 clears the issue, then you must have done something somewhere at sometime to cause the DCC input to the Cobalt to be reversed (since it was previously working).

.

If Test 2 on its own (or in combination with Test 3) clears the issue. Then the primary frog switching contacts (Terminals 1, 2 & 3) have got some kind of obscure fault. In which case you can either leave it wired using the AUX switch contacts or replace the Cobalt motor.

[Rich53]

 

PS, if I get out of this problem, I'll ask another, the turntable!!! Elite operates the turntable ok , the said loco arrives no problem, Departure onto track sheds a short occurs.

Hi Richard,

There are threads on the Forum regarding the setting up of a turntable to run on DCC.

The short possible answer is that you have

(a)  removed the brass contacts at the ends of the turntable bridge rails

and

(b)  wired the shed tracks to your DCC bus.

 

If this is the case, you can try simply reversing the wires on the shed track.

 

Ray

Thanks Ray, will look the thread over and see what ive done!

 

[Chrissaf]

The threads Ray alludes to are here:

.

R070 Turn Table DCC Modification

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/r070-hornby-turn-table-to-dcc-including-images/?p=1

 .

 R070 Setting Up configuration in RailMaster

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/r070-turntable-configuration-in-railmaster/?p=1

.

PS - In case you didn't see it, I added an amended reply to the bottom of the previous page (Page 1).

[Chrissaf]

Not without lifting the point.

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Yes you can attach a new wire to the frog from above and drill a hole through the baseboard, but if the manufacturers frog wire is touching something underneath, the fault would still be present.

.

PS - Please try and avoid using the 'white arrow in blue button' when replying. It really isn't necessary to keep re-quoting previous posts. And as you have found out, because you used this button on my post containing an image, your reply was held back for image authorisation. Fortunately on this ocassion the posting delay was just less than half an hour.

[St1ngr4y]

Richard,

Regarding the turntable, please be aware of the proviso which I added as an afterthought to my reply.

Ray

[Rich53]

Green reply button it is, sorry over confusion.

thanks to all, Richard.

[Flashbang]

To prove the frog wire is intact... You will need a multimeter or a battery operated buzzer with two fly test leads.  Disconnect frog wire from Cobalt and allow wire to hang down. Ensure power is Off to rails and everywhere else. Then with meter set onto Ohms range connect one lead to the removed frog wire and the other lead to either of the two Vee rails (they are joined together underneath the point). You should get a full short reading or a buzz if using that. If no reading or no buzz then its likely the frog wire has been disconnected somehow.  

 

Alternative is to test rails with power On. Vee rail to adjacent outer stock rail will either have power or show no power for one point direction and then move point over and the power should appear or be removed. Move to other Vee rail and outer rail and repeat. One way power will be seen move point and power will be removed. Use a Multimeter on DC Volts for DC layout. On AC volts range for DCC or use one of the 'Place on rail' LED power testers sold now. 

 

You can replace a broken frog wire with care... Drill a small dia hole (approx 1mm to 1.5mm dia) adjacent to one Vee rail outer edge between sleepers through teh baseboard. Feed a wire though the hole and strip its end by approx 4mm. Twist up stands and solder the wires bare end. Trim to about 2mm long.  Apply solder to the outer web area of the Vee rail where the wire is located and then lay wire on top of rails solder and place iron onto both to melt the solders into one. Remove iron and hold joint still for about 5 seconds.  Connect free end of this wire to Frog polarity switch.  Job done!

[Rich53]

Thanks to all for replies, will be going through recommendations today.

[Rich53]

gents, all recommended tests carried out, so looks like a faulty motor on frog side of things, there is continuity on frog wire, so final conclusion, new motor, unless other ideas in mind.

i do thank you all for advice given, and will continue to keep reading up on the forums.

Richard.

[Rich53]

I did not give up, I removed motor and installed on a small baseboard I use for setting points and loco decoders.

Nothing wrong with the motor, so the point itself is the problem.

Gave it ago, wiring seperate frog wire , very well put together by Flashbang, unfortunately my soldering skills are not to crash hot, I failed in that department.

So I will remove point and now have to purchase a new one, words fail me!

Thanks all for support and advice.

Richard.

[Rich53]

New point installed , motor installed as before, all working.

as it was one of the first points installed can only be a fault on my part.

[RB51]

Thanks, Rich for coming back and letting us know. R-