new DCC railway

[Master Mears]

Hello i've decidied to go and make a DCC railway, heres the plan, i've got a 7*4 board, got 10 locos all diesel, all dcc compatible, so i need to get DCC chips and will also get the hornby select. I've watched loads of videos on dcc railways also just ordered some dcc eletric point clips becasue apparently i need them for a dcc layout. 

My layout plan is to have a TMD layout and design it and add alot of detail as i can over the next few years. 

but what gets me is that if i put all the dcc eletirc point clips on my points on my layout will that power the entire layout from the hornby select on one power track? need some advice. 

 

 

[2e0dtoeric]

The short answer is Yes!

BUT it depends on where you put the single feed point, to a small degree.

Also have a look at the other new post - DCC Select Controller

and the 'sticky' thread at the very top of the General threads, marked - Getting Started with Track Extension Packs

These shjould answer the first of your many (to come) questions.

For a more reliable power connection system, look up the BUS wiring system - mentioned many times in the DCC threads. If you use that, you don't need the feeble and dodgy point clips, which were really a bodge solution.

[Master Mears]

thanks for the advice, i've seen some videos on bus wiring, just trying to get my head round it at the moment, if i don't go with the BUS method will the dcc point clips still work as a different solution? 

[Howbi]

There are 3 options I know of for Insulfrog Points......(1) Point Clips but not for long term use.......(2) Solder 'jumper' wires under the track instead of the clips (Peco make provision for this)........(3) Buy Bachmann DCC ready points which have the jumpers already in place.......HB

[Chrissaf]

Given a completely free choice I personally would always go with a BUS solution for DCC. But to answer your question, the DCC point clips will still work as an alternative solution. That's why Hornby introduced them.

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Hornby's philosophy is to treat everything like a toy you plug together and eliminate any need for specialist tools like soldering irons. The clips work, but IMHO a soldered direct to rail BUS works better for longer with less to go wrong.

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The main thing about implementing a BUS wired solution, is to work slowly and methodically. Check for short circuits as you connect each rail dropper to the BUS. Get just ONE dropper pair the wrong way round and you get an instant short circuit, which will be near impossible to find if you wait until it is all installed and connected before testing for it.

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If you haven't got one and you are going to get into this hobby, then I recommend that you include a Digital Multi-meter into your tool bag. It will be an invaluable tool for finding 'shorts' and diagnosing running problems with DCC and fitting decoders. There are plenty of meters on ebay costing less than £10 delivered and some under £3.

[Elliot1982]

As a recent purchaser of a Select, if you can go for the Elite, do it. I sent back the select within a few weeks, Elite so much better and easier to use. 

New Junction just loaded a video on bus wiring, again just gone DCC myself the clips work OK but BUS 100% better, again after a few weeks clips removed..I used soldering instead of peco droppers.

YouTube a great source but can also make it looker harder than it is.... Especially the US videos. 

[Creeping Jane]

I found out, just by chance when I visited one of the shops in Sheffield (other cities are available). that Peco do rail joiners (fishplates) that have wires connected to them, so if you are not handy with a soldering iron, then these could be dropped through the baseboard to connect to a bus with connection blocks or otherwise. Using your track as a bus is not a good idea, you are relying on the joins in the track to conduct power to all parts of the layout and also, if you are suing insulfrog points, then the connectivity at the points. You only need one bad fishplate along with a dodgy insulfrog point and you could introduce all sorts of problems. Just do a search for peco wired rail joiners and you will find what you need. They are available for all of the different rail codes (75, 83, 100) so will also be compatible with Hornby track (use code 100 for this I think).  The other thing of course is that a track feed clip will need to conduct quite a lot of current if you are running several locos and feeding your pointsand signals, coach lighting.......

[Johnboy99]

Go for the Bus System if I were you, I only got into this hobby in January this year and have learnt so much from this from,

i have just changed my layout to the bus system and it's tons better my point clips ware a pain,

i had never done soldering in my life and I am now 75 years young and am now putting lighting in my coache and fitting decoders you will have great fun , (Enjoy )

[Chrissaf]

PECO PL-80 (Code 100 joiners required for Hornby track).

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Only use as an alternative to soldering 'direct to rail' if totally in fear of doing any soldering. The PL-80 still relies upon mechanical push fit contact for electrical conductivity. Plus they are a bit pricey for what they are.

[Creeping Jane]

Chris, my only fear of a soldering iron is getting burnt (something I am well used to having worked in the electronics industry). I will be making sure all of my track connections are made by soldering. Many people are scared of soldering, but it is a skill that can be acquired quite quickly, you just need to make sure yout parts are clean, that your iron is powerful enough for the job, but not too powerful, and that you use either a multi-core solder or additional flux. Also tinning things before making the joins makes a big difference in preventing dry joints. There are several devices to hold things for you, something that with my advancing years makes a big difference.

[96RAF]

You argue against yourself (Creeping Jane) by saying you can get fishplates with wires attached but the joints are the weak link, which is exactly what fishplates with wires attached are - joints.

Rob

[hedley_reynolds]

Hi 

I had tried for to use fishplates with the wires attached and I had nothing but problems with them and I don’t know what they’re like for 00 gauge but in n gauge they were difficult to use so I turned to fitting the wires to the rails and it solved my problems 

although I hadn’t soldered for about 35 years I had soon got the hang of it again but like everyone else has said the bus is the best way as in time the fishplates becomes a little bit loose as well as the point clips

Hedley

[Chrissaf]

@Creeping Jane.

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Your comments are pretty much what I wrote in an earlier thread - see link.

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/new-to-soldering/?p=1

 

[Master Mears]

so my layout will be a tmd layout not a loop, if i get the hornby select or elite and bus wires, how will i set it up? this is how i see it in my head not sure if it's right, wire from dcc controller to a power track but then i get a bit confused on where the bus wires go, do i somehow conect them to the wire from the dcc controller and solder the wires to the tracks i want?. ive seen a lot of videos on bus wires and they all explain it so fast and looks complicated, im willing to learn just need a simple explanation so i can get my head round it. 

[Chrissaf]

So my layout will be a TMD layout not a loop, if I get the Hornby Select or Elite and BUS wires, how will I set it up?

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I'm willing to learn, I just need a simple explanation so I can get my head round it.

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Master Mears, This is just an example overview and not meant to be treated as the gospel. Just provided to give you a bit more of a clue.

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Being a non loop TMD, then it will effectively be a number of tracks laid relatively horizontally, with points joining the tracks together. My drawing is just a rough and ready representation (it is difficult to draw points quickly and accurately, hence represented by short diagonal track pieces). Hornby points act as electrical switches and route power from the TOE end of the point (TOE is the common end) to the route that they are switched to. This is why the majority of the droppers are shown on my drawing terminated on the TOE end of the points, as denoted by the dotted circles.

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Note: Of course, with such a relatively small layout. You could just use a single power track connection and rely on Hornby DCC point clips for the distribution of power throughout the layout. But as you can see from previous replies, the general consensus from forum members is for a BUS implementation. Your proposed TMD layout may potentially be relatively small, but it is likely to have lots of points in it for improved 'playability'. Having a high number of points does, in my view, also make a BUS implementation more attractive for long term reliability as the clips rely totally on contact spring pressure for electrical conductivity. In some larger layouts using clips, it has been reported on the forum of instances where point clips have glowed red hot and melted the point plastic due to the current they are passing, compounded by dirt induced resistance in the clip connection. Passing an electrical current through a resistance generates heat. This is basic Ohms Law O'Level Physics.

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However, as your TMD layout will be DCC, all the track will be live all the time. This is normally achieved by fitting Hornby R8232 DCC point clips to all the points. The point clips circumnavigate the inherent switching function of the Hornby point and make all rails permanently live. However, the point clips can be a fault liability as described in the italic note above. Thus it would be better to add additional droppers to the tracks on the divergent sides of the points to eliminate the need for clips altogether.

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The Horizontal thick BUS wires are typically 24/0.2mm or 32/0.2mm wires (24 [very small layouts] or 32 [larger layouts] strands of 0.2mm wire in a common PVC sheath). The droppers are thinner wires and typically 7/0.2mm (7 strands of 0.2mm) wires and soldered to the outside edge (or underside) of the individual track rails. They then pass through a small hole directly adjacent to the rail connection position to connect to the BUS under the baseboard. This keeps the wiring out of sight and tidy. Stranded wires are preferred to solid copper wires as they are more reliable and less prone to vibration fatigue induced breakages. Some breakages can be difficult to find, because they can break inside the insulation and not be visible.

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The joints from the droppers to the BUS can be any method that you feel comfortable with. They could be soldered joints with optional heat shrink sleeving. They could be soldered to TAG strips. They could be joined using 3 Amp electrical Nylon screw down terminal strips. The choice is yours.

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It is very important to not reverse any droppers. If you do, you will get an instant short circuit. You must maintain the same polarity as you connect droppers. One way to achieve this is to place a wagon on the track with a piece of tape stuck to the side the same colour as ONE of your dropper wire colours. Push the wagon through the track layout and through the points to the locations where you intend to fit a dropper. The tape now correctly shows you what rail to connect the same colour dropper wire too. As long as you never lift the wagon off the track, you should always be on the correct side of the track with your droppers. Notice how my Blue & Brown colour wires are consistently on the same side of the rails on all the connections in my drawing.

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The BUS acts as a connection point for all the DCC components. It removes the need for a traditional track power connector. Note how in the drawing, the Accessory Decoder is connected to the BUS as well. An 'Accessory Decoder' (optional) allows you to operate your points electrically using DCC commands from your DCC controller.

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Only the Hornby Elite and eLink have a separate PROG A&B output (used to configure your Locos when fitted with a DCC decoder). The Select requires you to disconnect the track from the Select track output and connect your Programming Track to the Select track output in its place. Thus why I have included some dotted lines on the programming track wires in the drawing.

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Hopefully, this overview will give you enough info to get you started. More information (albeit focused on oval layouts) can be found in my 'Extension Pack' document. Section 6 in the document describes DCC control. You can download my document from here:

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Once you have digested all this info, come back and ask more questions as needed.

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[96RAF]

MM

As an analogy think of a bus wire system as being the ring main in your house (Chris’s thick brown and blue wires) and each piece of track being an appliance you ‘plug in’ by way of the dropper leads (Chris’s thinner brown and blue wires). The controller is your ‘power’ supply.

Without a bus wire system think of your track as being lots of power extension leads daisy chained together, where a problem in any one will affect the next ones in line. From this you can see the fishplates joining the track are the weak link between track pieces, the same as dodgy connections in our daisy chain analogy.

Rob

[Master Mears]

thanks for the advice, i think i understand it better now, now i've got to make a list on what i need to buy, i have ordered some bus wire dcc kit, to connect the feed wires or drop wires to the main bus wires do i need to get splicers, also soldering iron, solder, and flux if i want to connect the drop wires dirrectly to the track. 

[Chrissaf]

Have a quick look at this previous post, it will be helpful.