Points directions wont pair up

[collectors]

I have two points i want to operate with 1 ID. I have set the same ID to both & would like them to both face either to the right as looking at the image or if i click the other way for both to be straight through & to operate at the same time. I have tried setting every combination on start-up position but when I click on the button they both face the wrong way.  Now I’m a bit lost. Any ideas.
All the other points that are similar work fine.

 

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[Chrissaf]

This is the classic RailMaster 'Passing Loop' issue that comes up time and time again on the forum. There is a 'work around' but you need RailMaster ProPack to make the 'work around' functional. The 'passing loop' conundrum is not solvable using RailMaster Standard Edition, well not elegantly.

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To read more about the 'work around' follow this link and the further links contained within the thread.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/point-mimic-direction-wrong/?p=1

[collectors]

Ah'ha, this will save pulling my hair out. Just going off to check on an upgrade price. Thanks

[96RAF]

This paired points problem has been niggling at me ever since it was first noted on the forum and the workaround devised. My early layouts had passing loops and they all worked fine, then the lightbulb came on....

....these were all manually operated and my first RM layout didn’t have paired points until AFTER I went Pro, even then my paired points were arranged as loop to loop cross overs (same as the OP point 002) not a true passing loop, BUT....

...looking at the same track plan on my spare Non Pro copy of RM I see that these paired cross over points work fine. When selected both throw matching straight or branch.

 

This would be the same in a passing loop, except the physical points on a cross over are both right hand (in my case) but in a passing loop there will be one of each - left hand and right hand.

Mine are set in the plan as:

P1A - Cont B Port 1 - Start Left with Rev polarity.

P1B - Cont B Port 1 - Start Left with Rev polarity.

Similarly point pair 2A/2B are set just the same but on Port 2.

 

I see no reason why a simple paired passing loop can’t be made to work the same, but with one port set start left and the other set start right. No doubt someone will be along to point out my schoolboy error of logic.

Rob

[Chrissaf]

No doubt someone will be along to point out my schoolboy error of logic.

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Assuming that I fully understood your 'school boy logic' in the first place, which I am not sure I do. However if I have understood correctly then........

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When you use the 'reverse' point check box. All that does is reverse which terminal on the accessory decoder sends the pulse. That is to say that it is an electrical reversal. Ticking the 'reversal' check box does not reverse the point indicator on the track plan display. Which you would need to do, to achieve the desired visual result on the plan.

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That's why you need ProPack. In ProPack you use the 'operate another point' feature where you can then set the direction 'left' or 'right' of the other point to be the opposite of the first one. Using that feature does correct the point display on the plan. This solution also requires one of the two points to be given a 'dummy' address that is not assigned to a physical accessory decoder port, whilst both points are wired in parallel to the live accessory decoder port. Of course, the solution will still work if each point is wired independently to its own Accessory decoder port (i.e using a real address instead of using a 'dummy' address), but that uses up a decoder port unnecessarily.

 

[96RAF]

You have my apologies. I have spent an hour or so on Pro-RM playing with passing loops and have not been able to make it work per my bright idea.

 

I have used 1 left and 1 right point set up as a standard bus stop passing loop and 2 left hand points set up as an offset trapezium shaped passing loop - i.e. in at bottom left and out at top right. like this...

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I have tried setting each of these configurations with both at normal polarity, and with both at rev polarity and with 1 at each polarity.

 

Almost needless to say whilst the points on the board synchronise to the desired throw pattern the screen plan indicators remain contra.

 

One odd thing I did see was with one point set at normal polarity and the other set at reverse polarity RM sent a double throw in that both points would throw opposite then back again.

 

I give up on this as it must be a coding problem.

Rob

 

[Chrissaf]

Hence why I wrote:

"Ticking the 'reversal' check box does not reverse the point indicator on the track plan display. Which you would need to do, to achieve the desired visual result on the plan."

In my previous reply.

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The only way I can see of doing this in RM Standard Edition. Is to wire each of the two points to their own dedicated Accessory Port with their own unique address. And then use the 'Set Route' feature in RM Standard Edition. Two routes would need to be configured, one for straight ahead and one for the loop. With each route consisting of just the two points in question. The downside of that plan, is that you can't then use the track plan point icons to switch both points with one single click. I don't currently use 'routes' so not sure if you could assign a route to a screen placed icon.

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Alternatively, you could write two simple RM 'programs' that just involve setting the route through the points and then assign the programs to two screen icons placed each side of the loop. However, I'm not sure if commands in a written program are reflected back into the track plan to show the point changes (one for Ray to answer). However that said, the assignment of programs to an icon is also only a ProPack feature. So one might as well just use the documented 'switch other point' ProPack solution instead.

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I suspect that these alternatives have already been tried, the result of which is that the ProPack 'switch other point' solution has been deemed the optimum fix for the issue.

[St1ngr4y]

 

One odd thing I did see was with one point set at normal polarity and the other set at reverse polarity RM sent a double throw in that both points would throw opposite then back again.

 

 

 

Hi Rob,

When you saw this, were both points configured (and wired) to the same port address? If so, I can understand this behaviour, because when more than one point is set to the same address, RM seems to send a command for every point which has that address. So in your example diagram, if the point to the right has "reverse polarity" set, then if you press the green button on the point at the left, the first signal will be a normal "right" command. This will then be followed by a green for the other point which, because of "reverse polarity", will send a "left" command. And because both points on the actual layout are activated by the same decoder port, both points will carry out a "right" followed by a "left".

 

By the way, the type of point icons you use (when you say 1 left and 1 right) has nothing to do with it, Whichever icon you use on the layout diagram, that point will have a left (red button) direction and a right (green button) direction. So when you click a Green button it will send a right command to the accessory decoder for that port unless reverse polarity is set. HOWEVER, on the layout diagram, the blue/grey route indicator on the point will only respond to the button which was pressed, no matter how "reverse polarity" is set. This means that in your example, if both points are configured with the same address, pressing EITHER green button will move BOTH route indicators towards their own green button.

 

Ray

[96RAF]

Ray I just used the first pair of cross over points already on track, to prove the test ’plan’. Left and right were just words I used to act as generic direction indicators. I cannot gel with RMs red/green oddly arrowed buttons - totally illogical to me.

 

I thought the odd double switching was likely due to one being normal and the other reversed. No great problem as it works fine on the real track.

 

Rob

[Chrissaf]

I cannot gel with RMs red/green oddly arrowed buttons - totally illogical to me.

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The arrows seem completely pointless to me too (pun intended). That's why I have my track plan configured to show the original point operating button icons without the arrows.

[96RAF]

Same here Chris - no arrows on show.

 

My logic says the right of way button should be green and the barred way should be red. This is how I have my track board junction indicators (twin bi-colour leds) made to work. It should be simple to have the software do this colour swap at each button As the right of way changes with the point selection. To have a green button when the track is set the other way is contra common sense in my opinion.

 

Rob

[St1ngr4y]

I think the original intention was that the colours indicate the direction - red = left, green = right - but I can never remember which is which, and besides, the physical location of the buttons next to the point should be enough to show which is which. By the way, have you noticed that if you click on the blue/grey route indicator, it toggles the point i.e. it switches it the other way from its current position. However, this only seems to work on certain point shapes - the later 45 degree points don't seem to work. Can this be reported as a fault, even though it isn't documented anywhere?

 

I agree with Rob - the colours would be better used to reflect the current direction setting, although this would render the blue/grey indicator redundant. I also don't use the arrows on the buttons.

 

Ray

[Chrissaf]

How strange Rob. The idea of thinking that red and green indicated some form of traffic light system never even entered my head. I just look at the buttons from the point of view as to what side of the point they are placed. To my thought processes, the colour was completely immaterial. They could even have been the same colour it doesn't matter to me.

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However, I think Hornby originally chose Red and Green for the buttons because (if wired the correct way round), the colours represent Hornby's standard Red & Green point wiring colours. That is to say, clicking the Red button puts an operating pulse on the Red wire, and Green on Green.

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Clicking the Red button, puts an output pulse of the R8247 + terminal. This is the terminal that is normally used for the Red wire**, well that is if the motor is mounted in the correct orientation. Of course if the motor is mounted 180° on the point then the wires are reversed.

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Note** although there is no official Hornby documentation I can find that confirms this.

[St1ngr4y]

Another strange thing is that, in the layout diagram .PLN file, there are three records for each point. There is one record for the point itself, but all it contains is the pair of x,y co-ordinates of its position on the plan. Then there are two more records which are actually called "Red" and "Green". They each have a pair of x,y co-ordinates defining their postions on the plan, but they also hold (duplicated in each record) all of the configuration information about the point, which you see in the layout design window.

 

Ray

[RB51]

They could even have been the same colour it doesn't matter to me.

 

Many moons ago I read somehwere, might have been on here, that the direction lights for routing train movements on a real 1:1 panel are indeed a single colour - I think amber. The lamp for the set route is illuminated and the other lamp is extinguished. I always found the red/green way of operating to be confusing, I suppose I get stuck in "traffic light" mode. R-

[96RAF]

I just looked at a future project on RM and it shows the passing loop problem was there already waiting to trip me up later...

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Rob