Brand new select overload

[Jdog]

Hi. I got a select dcc controller for my 13th birthday yesterday.  I have 2 dcc trains which both cause overload at random times and places on my layout. My dad has tested the track with his multimeter and can't find any faults. Could it be a faulty controller? 

[2e0dtoeric]

Did you have a different controller before?

What was it?

Did the two trains both run when that was in use?

What trains are they? (Hornby, Bachmann? model numbers?)

Do you have lots of lights or other 'gadgets' running from the Select as well?

The Select can only deliver one amp of power, (enough for two trains) so it may just be that you are asking too much of it. You can persuade your Dad to buy you another power supply - the one meant for the Elite controller can deliver four amps of power, so is much more capable. This extra power will not hurt your Select.

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[dynax]

i suspect that the locos are dcc ready, in which case they need to have decoders fitted to them, and DO NOT use them with any digital system until they have,

[walkingthedog]

Surely they wouldn’t run at all if they are DC. 

[dynax]

they would if they were run on the zero address, and the two of them together with the capacitors across the motor terminals would create the overload,

[walkingthedog]

That’s true but he would have to programme that address. You could well be right.  😀

[Chrissaf]

I agree, I too suspect that these so called DCC locos are 'DCC Ready'.

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J'dog, it is really important that you answer the questions raised by Ericm0hff above. Then we can give you accurate targeted advice.

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But in the meantime, the box these two DCC trains came in. Does the box printing say "DCC Ready" or "DCC Fitted" sometimes also referred to as "DCC On-board". If the box says "DCC Ready", then these locos are DC Analogue locos and should not be used with your Select DCC controller until you or your dad have fitted DCC Decoders to them, to make them fully digital. Using DCC Ready locos with a DCC controller risks permanent damage to the electric motors.

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Although the Select manual says controlling a DC Analogue loco can be done by switching the controller into 'Address Zero' mode (Page 16 of the Select manual). It also says on that page that Hornby do not recommend it. Many DCC controller manufacturers are dropping 'Address Zero' support from their controller products due to the damage using it can do.

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I suggest that you download and  review my PDF document titled “Getting Started, including Track Extension Packs” downloadable from the sticky post with the same name at the top of the ‘General Discussion’ sub-forum. Don’t be put off by the document title; the document will give you a good ‘all round’ grounding in the differences between DC Analogue vs DCC Digital control and what is involved in upgrading a layout from one to the other.

[Jdog]

Both the locos are dcc fitted. One is factory fitted and is a dapol b4. The other is a bachmann collet goods that my dad fitted and is the hornby r8249. This is my fast dcc controller. I have no accessories and it does when only one loco is on the track. They both ran fine on analogue.

[2e0dtoeric]

Are you still using the analogue power clip or power track?

If so, there is a capacitor fitted in it that needs removing! There are several posts in here about this.

In the power clip, pop the cover off, and look inside - the little 'thingy' across the connectors needs to be snipped out.

If the power track, it is hidden underneath - again snip it out.

You probably cannot reply now for 24 hours or so.

[Chrissaf]

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The capacitors (blue thingies) can look like a very low resistance to a DCC signal. They are only used on DC Analogue controlled track. If building a DCC layout from scratch, then one would use the specific DCC versions of these power clips (R8241 & R8242). However, if your layout was originally DC Analogue, then you are more likely to have DC Analogue versions of these clips (R602 & R8206). In which case, the capacitors need to be removed for DCC working.

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Also, if you have installed any Hornby R8201 Link Wire kits to distribute DCC power around your layout. Then the R8201 track clips will ALSO contain these capacitors and need removing. The R8201 is not meant to be used on DCC layouts.

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Images above posted to add a bit more detail to Eric's reply.

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[2e0dtoeric]

😉

[Fishmanoz]

J’dog, while you must certainly remove all of those capacitors for reliable operation, I suspect this isn’t going to fix your shorting fault. You say it happens with either loco running and at random positions around the layout, but are you sure it isn’t only happening when a loco is running over points?

 

 DCC is certainly more susceptible to shorts crossing points than analogue. One of the causes is the back-to-back distance between wheels is incorrect, they should be very close to 14.5mm.

[Jdog]

Thanks for all the replies. We thought the issue could be poor connection between track an controller. My dad has soldered new wires to the rails. We thought it might be the points issue but it has done it a number of times on straight sections of track. We are going to see if  we can find enough curves to make a simple test loop. 

[Jdog]

Hi all i got a new dcc factory fitted locomotive for christmas and this will only short on the crossover. Is this a common problem eith crossovers or do i just need to get a new one

[Chrissaf]

Since you originally had a DC Analogue layout, then one assumption could be that you fitted Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) where the two points meet to form a cross-over. If those IRJs are still fitted. Then that means that you must have joined the two loops together electrically through some other wiring mechanism as part of the conversion to DCC in order to make the whole track always live.

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If one of the oval DCC feed connections is reversed, then everything will appear to operate normally. That is until a wheel on any piece of rolling stock bridges the IRJ on the points cross-over. The opposing rails (due to a power feed reversal) will be at opposite DCC phase (polarity) and create a short circuit.

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Does the description above fit in with your layout wiring scenario. If it does, then just reverse one of the track loop power connections and try again.

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If you are using a Hornby R8201 Link Wire to link two track ovals together, then the track clips the R8201 uses also contain the capacitors discussed in an earlier reply. These capacitors must be removed for DCC working.

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The drawing below represents using the 'Hornby R8201 Link Wire' to link two track loops together. If the bottom connections are wired A - A & B - B as per the top drawing and not A - B & B - A as shown in the drawing, then you will get a short circuit.

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EDIT: Just for clarity, when you say a "cross-over" I am assuming you mean a points based cross-over between layout loops. And that you do not mean a scissor (diamond) cross-over track piece as shown below.

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[Jdog]

No i mean a dimond crossover sorry for not classifying 

[Chrissaf]

What brand and model (part) number is the diamond cross-over?

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This has a bearing on the direction an answer to give will take.

[Jdog]

Peco but there are no numbers and the rail measures 125mm in th direction of travel

[Chrissaf]

PECO...OK

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I have PECO insulated frog Code 100 diamond cross-overs (PECO Part number SL94 Long Cross-over] which are 250mm on each rail length. If yours is 125mm in each direction then I suspect that it is likely to be an SL-93 Short Cross-over [i am assuming Code 100 rail with insulated frogs].

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These PECO cross-overs can be prone to causing a short circuit when the metal wheels bridge the two rails circled in red....see the second image further below. Even my own long PECO cross-overs suffered from this issue. Not every loco is affected, it can depend upon the profile of the wheel. A flatter wheel profile such as profile A in the drawing below is more susceptible to shorting than profile B:

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Look closely at these areas on your cross-over. Are the two rails very close together with hardly any gap between them. Watch your loco traversing this part of the frog very closely at very low speed. Does the short occur when the wheels are in this frog area of the cross-over. If your observations indicate that this is the problem area on the cross-over, then you can use some clear ladies nail varnish to provide some additional insulation barrier. Just the rail tips though, do not go overboard with the varnish. Do both frog ends of the cross-over as indicated by the red circles.

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If the nail varnish solves your problem, just be aware that you might need to occasionally refresh the coating as it wears away.

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[Fishmanoz]

And check the wheel back-to-back distances as I suggested in my last post.  Just because it is new is no guarsntee these are correct.