Novice - different DCC problems with 3 brand new locomotives?

[Eddles]

Hi all.  I've decided to build a model railway for my dad and let him play with it as he has dementia and was a massive railway fanatic as a kid.

Over time with different presents, he got 4 locomotives - 2 kits and 2 standalone - one kit was the Flying Scotsman kit with an analogue controller, and a Western Express kit with an e-link & RailMaster software.  The two locomotives are accidentally both Mallard with DCC already fitted.  Funnily, the locomotives aren't exactly identical, but I digress.  Everything was brand new from big brand stores.

To start with, I decided to build a simple oval track to learn how the system works, and I started with the analogue controller, and everything worked fine, though one Mallard went inthe opposite direction to the rest, strangely enough.  Anyway, my dad is very keen on DCC, so I decided to use the Western Express DCC kit to learn how it works before starting to build our first, proper track.

I found the DCC kit to be a major struggle, and I got it to work, however three locomotives has three separate problems, which is very perplexing.  The Flying Scotsman locomotive is out of the picture as it doesn't have DCC fitted yet.

First, the Western Express train - it kept on jamming, and on a close look, it seems that the wheels on either side are out of sync, and the "main rod" (correct name?) seems to be on different locations on the wheels.  Sometimes when it goes forwards, it jams, but when going backwards, it gets free, then I change it to go forward, then it works fine for a bit until it jams again?  This train has only run for about an hour in total.  Here's a picture of the main rods, you can see the pins are not symmetrical. 

of the train running and jamming.  How can I fix this?

Second, I spent hours trying to get one of the Mallards to work, but it was really strange, I tried to change the DCC ID to 001, the RailMaster read, wrote and confirmed the value fine, but when I refreshed the CV1 value, the ID reverted to 000?  Writing random values on random CV fields worked fine with confirmation, but when I tried to refresh all CV values, everything came up as 000?  I tried writing 8 to CV8 to no avail. 

that show me successfully writing the locomotive ID as 0001 and then this read back as zero?  How do I fix this issue, or do I need to replace the DCC controller within the locomotive?  It's this one that ran in the opposite direction on the analogue track.

After several hours of this and battling a slow laptop, I gave up and unpacked the other Mallard, and plonked it on the programming track, and it programmed perfectly the first time.  Argh.  However, my problem with this one is that despite being set with a shunting speed of 10mph and running speed of 90mph, it would run at maximum speed even if I select shunting speed at 10mph?  I'm sure this is a configuration problem, but I can't see what I'm doing wrong? 

showing the running, here's the picture of the configuration screen and here's the main screen.

I'm tearing out my hair here a bit, so I'd really appreciate some help, thank you in advance!

[Chrissaf]

Let me congratulate you on the excellent presentation of your questions. Detailed, informative, logically structured. Something we see far too little of on this forum. It is as if you have read, understood and implemented all the appropriate forum tips that have been recently published in the 'Feedback' section.

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You raise a number of issues, that will take a bit of time to analyse. So I won't try and provide comments here and now. But will come back later with a considered response in a second post if I can find any suggestions to make.

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TIP: As this is your very first post, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

[Rog RJ]

Looks like Ketley Hall has a coupling rod hanging loose, not connected to the leading drive wheel on the right hand side.

[96RAF]

The fact you are showing F6 as shunt in the last screen shot of the Mallard function list makes me think this is not a TTS sound chip, maybe ESU.

 

Does RM correctly ID the decoder type and make when you interrogate it and hence populating the correct list of applicable CVs. This has nothing to do with your running problems, just for my interest.

[Chrissaf]

Western Express.........it seems that the wheels on either side are out of sync.....

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Looking at the two screen captures below taken from your video. The rods all look relatively normal to me. But I am no expert on steam locos and others can make their own comment. The rods are supposed to be in different positions on each side of the loco. This is called 'quartering'.

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I suspect that all your other issues may have a common solution. Let me explain.

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You have stated that there were two sets. One Analogue and one Digital. Each set will have a power track. The Analogue set should have a R8206 power track and the Digital set should have a R8241 power track. Now looking at your videos I notice two things.

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Firstly, you are using the main track layout for both running the train AND programming the loco decoder and moving the track wires to the appropriate output (Track or Prog) on the eLink. Not so much of an issue (yet) as your track is very much in a testing stage and not fully laid or set up. Ideally, the programming track should be a completely separate piece of track and short, just long enough to hold the longest loco being configured. The programming output of the controller is at very much lower power than the main track output. Having long lengths of track (as in your video) attached to the programming output can act as an aerial and pick up background electrical noise interference. Thus the very low signal level used for programming can be corrupted. Keeping the programming track very short keeps the low level programming signal as electrically clean as is possible, and since you are experiencing programming issues then using a short separate track piece for programming may help immensely.

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This screen shot shows the main track wired to the eLink prog output.

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Secondly, now to the more potentially error issue. As mentioned above. The Analogue and Digital power tracks are different [R8206 versus R8241]. The power track in your video is the same one used for track running and programming..

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Typically the Digital R8241 power track has 'Black' push terminals (but I believe that there may have been a colour change to the push buttons at some point during the R8241 product history......possibly even green as shown in your video). Now if the track power connector shown in your video was from the Analogue set it will have a suppression capacitor in it wired across the track rails. This capacitor will have very strange effects on the DCC Digital signal and cause all sorts of running issues. It affects programming signals even worse, because they are already at a lower power value.

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To complicate matters, some early Western Digital sets were shipped either with an Analogue power track in error. Or had a factory modified Analogue power track instead of the R8241 power track.

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The only way to be absolutely sure that the power track you are using is correct for digital use is to open it up and check for the capacitor and remove it if one is found.

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If the capacitor is found. Then remove it as per the image above. Then retest to see if your issues have been fixed or at the very least improved or changed in any way. Then report back here with the results.

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Just a general comment regarding your CV reading.

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I see that when reading the decoder address you have restricted the read range as [From 1 to 1] see image below.

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I suggest that you extend the read range to include CV7 & CV8 i.e read [From 1 to 10]. RM reads CV7 & 8 first before reading the other CVs in the selected range so that it can check database entries to see what decoder is fitted. Doing this extended read range may help with obtaining better reading results.

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Being able to see the values for CV7 & CV8 will also give clues as to whether the decoder is being read cleanly and correctly. It will also confirm what decoder brand & model is actually fitted. This is what Rob was referring to in his post when he said:

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Does RM correctly ID the decoder type and make when you interrogate it.......

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I am sure from the rest of your post content that you are aware of this, but for the benefit of all newbie readers. Locos packaged as 'DCC Ready' are not digital locos and do not have a DCC decoder in them. Thus they cannot be read correctly on a programming track. 'DCC Ready' locos need to have a decoder fitted in the internal socket before they become fully digital locomotives.

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It would be immensely helpful if you could state the Hornby R code numbers for the two Mallards. Your configuration screen in the video shows a loco configured with sound. Subject to the R stock code numbers, you may not have selected the correct loco when setting it up in RM.

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However, my problem with this one is that despite being set with a shunting speed of 10mph and running speed of 90mph, it would run at maximum speed even if I select shunting speed at 10mph?

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This is the third time in recent weeks that this issue (or similar) has been raised. Previous members have been able to fix the issue by deleting the loco from the RM roster and re-installing it afresh. If it helps, these previous threads give guidance on how to correctly add a loco from the Hornby database into RM plus other aspects of setting up locos in RM.

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Adding a loco from the database into RM.

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/loco-registration/?p=1

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Using RM to read and write CVs

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/problem-with-tts-decoder/?p=1

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Manually adding a Loco to the RM Database.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/r3459tts-decoder-not-recognized-23469/

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Full description of the ‘Locomotive Settings’ screen in detail.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/changing-cruise-and-shunt-speeds/?p=1

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Finally, I see from one of your screen shots that you have version 1.70 RM installed. Now the original release was full of bugs that were largely fixed with the 1.70.2 release.

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If you hover the cursor over the yellow 1.70 box the 'Revision' pop-up box should appear. It should say 'Revision 2'. Either way, regardless of what revision is actually installed. I suggest that you manually upgrade RM to version 1.71.

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You can download Version 1.71 from the link shown at the top of the RailMaster & Trackmaster forum.

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You do not need to uninstall the installed version first. Just run the downloaded installer straight over the top of the existing version. Although not essential, it is wise to 'right click' the downloaded installer file and choose the "Run as administrator" option. If you then start getting any eLink communication issues, the fix for those is in this existing thread:

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/railmaster-version-171-released/?p=1

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[2e0dtoeric]

Looking at Chrissaf's freeze-frames, second image of the right side of the loco -

On the piston slider guide, there is a diagonal rod poking down from the very top. I don't have this loco, but I think that rod should be inside the black tube just under the footplate - I think it is meant to represent either the reversing gear, or the valve timing linkage.

I've just looked at my King, but the valve-gear is totally different.

[walkingthedog]

You are right Eric it should be in the tube. So that and the disconnected connecting rod is going to cause no end of problems. 

 

It is an air pump (vacuum pump) not anything to do with the reversing gear.  😀

[Chrissaf]

Well spotted Eric.

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Eddles,

Image reposted below with incorrectly placed item indicated.

Eric & WTD say that the horizontal round rod should be in the plastic tube sleeve.

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[walkingthedog]

And as Rog said the connecting rod isn’t connected to the front drive wheel. 

[96RAF]

And as Rog said the connecting rod isn’t connected to the front drive wheel. 

Where the tail of the upward pointing arrow intersects the circle In the picture.

Looks like the attach screw has gone AWOL.

[walkingthedog]

It has gone AWOL.

[Chrissaf]

As others have pointed out. As well as the misplaced rod. The Hex screw from the hole (red arrow) is missing. The screw is used to connect the rod to the wheel (green arrow). I would imagine that the round rod in the plastic tube also became displaced due to this missing screw.

/media/tinymce_upload/7b723e369ce97bea2e67256d681d8dab.jpg

[Eddles]

Hi all!  Wow, amazing replies, thank to you all, been a great help!

 

So I've been busy, along with hammering the laptop to update - took literally 4 days for Windows to update itself... and updated Railmaster to version 1.71.  I finally got time today to have a look at the problems, all the updates has made things a lot more reliable and things ran smoother.

 

First of all, you all have eagle eyes!  The Western Express locomotive is missing a screw, like you all said. Is this the correct part I need to replace the screw?  What driver do I need to replace the screw, or is there a set I should buy?

 

Secondly, while ransacking the room to find the manual for the Flying Scotsman for instructions on how to fit a DCC decoder, I happened to come across the packing for the first Mallard (the one that refused to change DCC values from 000 to anything else), and right on the box it said "DCC Ready".  ARGH!  It's annoying though, the Railmaster software seemed to be able to read the chip, write to it and pop up "Confirmed" which lead me to think it did detect a chip, whereas it was talking to a non-existent chip.  Sigh.  DCC decoder on order.

 

Thirdly, I looked at the other Mallard, found its packing, got its R code, and entered it in Railmaster and it showed me "Gadwall" and not "Mallard".  Looking at the model itself showed "Gadwall" on the name plate.  Sigh.  Should have been more careful... put it in as "Gadwall" on Railmaster then the train worked perfect.

 

I should be OK from now on, however I've got another question.  Regarding the Mallard without DCC, when I looked up "Mallard LNER Blue" Railmaster showed something like 10 identical LNER Blue Mallards with different R codes.  I realised the R code wasn't stamped or visible on the model itself - it took me a long time to find the R code - it was on the manual itself.  Is there a way to find the R code on the model itself in case of missing or mixed-up manuals?

 

As an aside, I looked inside the digital/analogue pickups - the one with green buttons is definitely digital, and the one with orange buttons is definitely analogue.

 

Many thanks again for your time!

[Chrissaf]

The coupling rod pack X6629 on your link seem to be the correct items with about 99% certainty in my humble opinion. As I said before, I am no expert on Steam Locos, but since you only want the screw, then that is very likely to be a common part.

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The correct nut spinner to fit the Hex head is a metric M2.5 one. Hornby sell a specific nut spanner (spinner) for that under part number R913

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Alternatively, Expo Tools product code 78032 fits as well. Or you can push out the boat and buy the Expo 6 piece set which includes the 78032 under Expo part number 78040

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I have the 78040 set and the M2.5 tool fits my Hornby hex nuts fine.

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Is there a way to find the R code on the model itself in case of missing or mixed-up manuals?

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Unfortunately not always. Many models may not have the R code stamped on the chassis....mores the pity.

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Regarding the Mallard without DCC, when I looked up "Mallard LNER Blue" RailMaster showed something like 10 identical LNER Blue Mallards with different R codes.

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When adding a Hornby DCC Ready loco that does not have a Hornby factory fitted decoder in it to the RM roster. You can select a model from the database that looks right. That is to say has the right loco image to display. But you can then select the decoder to use in that model within RM as a different set up configuration task.

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Let me explain.

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If someone buys a Hornby DCC Ready model, then there is no guarantee that the owner will install a Hornby decoder......and even if they did install a Hornby decoder...... what one......TTS (sound) or the basic R8249 etc. Therefore the database entry for a DCC Ready loco by R number will only select the loco image and some aspects about the model like cruise and shunt speeds based upon the original locomotive prototype. The Hornby database won't be able to populate the decoder information, because as the decoder was not factory fitted, the database won't know what decoder to call up to complete the configuration.

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To get round this, there are two options. If you know the DCC Ready loco R number, search RM using the R number. If you don't know the loco R number, just select one that looks right based upon the image that gets loaded and the specifications that populate the info boxes. It really doesn't matter to RM what loco image is displayed for DCC Ready locos.

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Once that is done then read the CVs on the program track. This will read CV7 & 8 which will identify which decoder is fitted. This will then populate the CV list with the correct entries independently from the selection of the loco image info. It is the decoder database entry in RM that defines how RM will control the loco, not the R number loco database entry. A DCC Fitted loco on the other hand is a different prospect, and calling up the correct R number for it is more critical. Particularly for factory fitted TTS sound decoder models, as this will impact what gets populated in the 'Function Button' list.

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Not all locomotives a user buys will necessarily be Hornby locos (only Hornby locos will be in the loco database). So RM is designed to allow non Hornby locos to be added and use the decoder database entry instead to configure them. As said above, the decoder database does have entries for non Hornby decoders as well.

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If the CV reading process does not identify the decoder in CV7 & 8 or identifies it incorrectly, then double left click the CV7 entry and manually choose the decoder you know you have installed from the drop down list......see Page 72 of the RM manual for further reading. This will then populate the CV list with appropriate values. Note that the CV7 drop down list also has entries for non Hornby decoders as well as Hornby ones and as said on Page 72 of the RM manual, it is critical that the correct decoder is selected. Therefore a manually selected choice should be used as the last resort.

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