Southern Electric

[mortehoe]

How about the South Eastern Subs with the not so pointed front end, and not paneled/smooth sides.

[mortehoe]

How about the South Eastern Subs with the not so pointed front end, and not paneled/smooth sides.

[LCDR]

You are referring I think to the 1401 series 3Subs? These were built new by Metropolitan C&W for the 1926 SE schemes to Dartford and Orpington, and were the first on the soon to become standard 62 foot underframe. These had smooth steel sides and originally

the panelling was represented by lining. At the same time they built some short frame units for SW extensions, numbered 1285 upwards. These were very similar to the 56 foot LSWR sets although they featured a more straightforward arrangement of compartments.

These too had smooth sides wheras the original LSWR sets were panelled. When the LSWR sets were rebuilt on to standard 62 foot underframes the 1285s were kept on short frames and it is one of these sets from which a motor brake third has survived in the NRM.

From then on the Southern recycled steam carriages to make the new electric trains. The LB&SCR and L&SWR coaches used were bogie vehicles extended by the addition of extra compartments taken from odd carriages that were dismantled. The SER coaches used to

make electric sets were taken from batches of 4 and 6 wheel coaches, re-mounted in pairs on the new 62 foot underframes. Virtually all of these recycled carriages had fully panelled bodies, and some were matchboarded too. When the LB&SCR overhead electrics

were discontinued their carriages were also converted to DC third rail by similar means, but as they were already on long underframes they stayed more or less as built (Apart from the addition of a domed and slightly pointed cab end).

The LSWR suburban

stock provided bodies to a lot more electric sets than the others sections, and also the driving motor brake was repeated in the 2Nol units. The LB&SCR were the next most numerous, and the SER the smallest contributor. Ultimately there were over 2000 electric

train carriages built for the Southern before WW2.

[Southernman777]

Hi, for me the 2-Bills and 4-Cors are lovely units. Both lasted to see corporate blue liveries with full yellow ends. I could have blues ones with a 'preserved' green lined edition. Wonderful.

3 & 4 Subs would be great too.

A 6-Pull would

look great on any layout with the Pullman Car in the middle of the unit!

[LCDR]

A 6Pul was, undoubtedly, a stylish unit. However they were (with the 6Pan) odd ones out because the motor coaches were on unusual underframes, and incompatible with almost all other SR stock. They also had different bogies. The trailers were similar to

the Maunsell steam stock but were 3 feet longer. My vote would rather go to the 4Cor, and the 3Sub, which gives a main line and a suburban unit which share a common underframe, and thus reduces the overall difficulty and cost in manufacture. The 4Cor still

exists in preservation so would be much easier to copy when making the model.

The real 6Pul sets operated only on a very limited route to Hastings (Ore) and Worthing, but the 4Cor went to most places on the South Coast, and operated out of London Bridge,

Victoria AND Waterloo too, and thus much better known.

6 car sets also are probably too long for the average modeller to accomodate on their layout. The proposed Blue Pullman and the Brighton Belle will I suspect be operated as short sets because of

this problem (four car maximum). It would be better to recognise this and produce a set such as the 4Cor that can operate as designed.

[Southernman777]

LC&DR (& Hornby!),

The 4-COR would be good then. I remember going on holiday to Brighton on them and 2-BILLs, lovely.

[the ferret]

LC&DR said:

You are referring I think to the 1401 series 3Subs? These were built new by Metropolitan C&W for the 1926 SE schemes to Dartford and Orpington, and were the first on the soon to become standard 62 foot underframe. These had smooth

steel sides and originally the panelling was represented by lining. At the same time they built some short frame units for SW extensions, numbered 1285 upwards. These were very similar to the 56 foot LSWR sets although they featured a more straightforward

arrangement of compartments. These too had smooth sides wheras the original LSWR sets were panelled. When the LSWR sets were rebuilt on to standard 62 foot underframes the 1285s were kept on short frames and it is one of these sets from which a motor brake

third has survived in the NRM. From then on the Southern recycled steam carriages to make the new electric trains. The LB&SCR and L&SWR coaches used were bogie vehicles extended by the addition of extra compartments taken from odd carriages that were dismantled.

The SER coaches used to make electric sets were taken from batches of 4 and 6 wheel coaches, re-mounted in pairs on the new 62 foot underframes. Virtually all of these recycled carriages had fully panelled bodies, and some were matchboarded too. When the LB&SCR

overhead electrics were discontinued their carriages were also converted to DC third rail by similar means, but as they were already on long underframes they stayed more or less as built (Apart from the addition of a domed and slightly pointed cab end).

The

LSWR suburban stock provided bodies to a lot more electric sets than the others sections, and also the driving motor brake was repeated in the 2Nol units. The LB&SCR were the next most numerous, and the SER the smallest contributor. Ultimately there were over

2000 electric train carriages built for the Southern before WW2.

[the ferret]

Hi LC&DR, This is all most interesting. So were the 2-NOLs rebuilds of old stock like the 3-SUBs?

I have several books on pre-war emu's and was under the impression that the 2-NOLs were new build, being later superseded by the 2-BILs.

I knew

both at Staines. The NOLs were on Windsor/Weybridge and the BILs on Reading/Aldershot duties.

My memory is hazy with regard to the NOLs but seem to remember them as fully panelled. This is, of course, the very devil to do in plasticard!!

[LCDR]

You need to see my other post (in old coaches thread) regarding the 62 foot underframe saga. The 2Nol betrays its steam stock origins because they were exquisitely panelled. The new build coaches (1285 and 1401 3Subs, 2Bil, 4Lav, 2Hal,) were all flush

panelled. At first Maunsell had them lined out as though they were panelled, but they were all covered with steel sheets, and the windows were fitted nearly flush too. Body framing remained timber and the roofs were timber covered with treated canvas.

[the ferret]

I knew that the BILs had flush windows and having made two units from Branchlines/Kirk kits. I have used the Branchlines MB35 motor bogie that accepts the cosmetic castings made by SRG Phoenix. The result is very pleasing. The first unit I made with interior

corridor side glazing and it just doesn't look right. With the second unit I cut out the glazing window by window and applied it from the outside. It is fixed using Wizard Models "Microglaze", a blend of PVA glue, and another solvent. This sets giving a very

strong bond, but when dry is transparent. The result is an enormous improvement on just glueing a long strip of glazing on the inside.

On the compartment side I have done some of the drop windows partially open and it all adds to the general effect.

The

big problem with these kits (and I wonder how Hornby overcome this with their 5-BEL and 4-VEP units)is that of gapping because of the short 35mm wheelbase of the motor bogies. I have used SRG Phoenix white metal bogies throughout. The SRB6 is an 8 ft "steam"

bogie and is also used on the Ian Kirk Maunsell corridor coaches that were all we had until Hornby made theirs. (These can only be described as total perfection - Thank you Hornby!)

I am in the process of overcoming the gapping problem by utilising

SRB1 35mm (8ft 9in) trailer-collector bogies at the end remote from the motor bogies. Thus current is collected both at the motor bogie under the motor car cab and at the t/c bogie beneath the trailer cab. Now we are left with the problem of connecting with

two wires throughout the 2-coach set. At first I ran cables down inside each coach with flexible jumpers between the cars. This caused mayhem at both cab ends to ensure free movement of the bogies on their pins to accommodate curves in the track.

I

then looked at the drawings of the 12 inches to the foot variety and realised that the conductors went along the roofs of the cars!! So now I am doing mine the same way. Richard Maunsell's engineers must have known what they were doing. Their conductors appear

through the cabroofs. So I made up four pieces of 1mm tube with 10BA washers to fit inside the roofs and connect down to the bogie pick-ups and the motor. I then used 0.5 mm brass wire along the roof to the inner bulkheads where there are more 1 mm tubes into

which fit the tinned ends of the jumper cables.

It is very fiddly and I am still working on it to get all four cars of the two units done.

When complete I will have two units to run in multiple. I plan a third unit to be unpowered to run on

two steam bogies and two Trailer-collector bogies. A six coach unit is really quite long enough.

Then I will tackle the 2-NOLs!!

It is all very challenging but it keeps you off the streets (Lol!)

[LCDR]

Hi Mr Ferret, I like your solution to the power jumper issue. So far I have only made a SRG Phoenix 2Hal, and a NNK 4EPB, and as these have aluminium bodies the roof jumpers would need to be insulated, but of course the bodies themselves will provide one

side of the circuit. I was in the process of fitting phosphor bronze pickups to the trailer bogies, and then realised that one SPUD motor bogie would be insufficient for the 4EPB and the project is now in the pending tray.

Roxey do make a 2Nol kit in

brass if you are feeling wealthy!

[the ferret]

While I have an undying affection for the pre-war southern electrics of all types, it has to be said that now the railways of Britain are ALL multiple units they have relinquished that erstwhile and all important flexibility. The railways continue to be

underfunded, desperately short of rolling stock and with the passing of loco-hauled passenger trains can't, at short notice, quickly drag a couple of extra coaches out of the sheds and add them to a train to ease the overcrowding. I have seen five hundred

people trying to get on a two coach multiple unit - and half being left behind (obviously)

That's why I can't get enthusiastic about "modern image". It is all so ineffectual now and everyone just grabs their ignition key.

[LCDR]

It isn't really multiple unit operation that is the root cause of the inability to stengthen overcrowded trains, but the chronic shortage of stock. If Neville Hill had extra sets then the trains out of Leeds that are packed like sardine tins could be strengthened,

but as it is these hapless passengers are hauled past the depot packed to the rafters the sidings are empty. If the sets are there adding extra carriages is much simpler than adding carriages to a locomotive hauled train.

Fixed formation trains on the

other hand are a problem.

[LCDR]

Now we are promised a 2Hal to accompany the excellent 2Bil, I hope that Hornby will capitalise on the tooling in future years to give us further traditional Southern EMUs. Personally I hope that the next one will be a three car suburban unit (3Sub) plus

an augmentation trailer to make it up to a 4Sub. The best one would have been the MCW built 1496 series that became 4326 series when they had an all steel six-a-side trailer added post war.

Alternatively a proper all-steel 4Sub from the 4621 to 4754

series would be extremely useful.

[the ferret]

meggsie said:

I agree both Bachmann & Hornby appear to be favouring the BR era Southern Electrics but how about some proper SR EMUs like the 4 Cors built in the late 1930s and which lasted into the 1970s so plenty of livery scope. There are

at least two prototype sets in preservation, one in the NRM, with opportunities to make sub types of 4 Res & 4 Buf. I believe these could also be run in multiple with the 5 Bel (Brighton Belle) units.

Hi there, Meggsie, so glad to find another

Southern E.M.U. enthusiast. I have never heard of a 4-COR running with a 5BEL. As they were also London to Brighton stock, I think that a 6-PUL or 6-PAN might be more suitable. Both PUL and PAN are available as kits from SRG-Phoenix (was once BSL). As you

are obviously so keen on the Southern Railway why not join with LC&DR and myself as members of The Southern Railways Group, then you can get your PUL and PAN kits at 10% reduction.

I am at present engaged in replacing the motor bogies with dummies,

in two Ian Kirk 2-BIL's and will then run them with two Hornby 2-BIL#'s to make an eight coach 2-BIL train as per 12 inches to the foot!!

You could run two 4-COR units as a set train quite correctly. Like PUL's and PAN's, the 4-COR is also available

from SRG in kit form (glued assembly).

Why not join us?

[LCDR]

Having nearly completed the Phoenix Bulleid design 'Tin' 2Hal kit, my next project is likely to be a Bulleid 4Sub. I have a NNK kit for one. That probably means that Hornby will be bringing one of these out in the next two years, such is my luck in such

matters. I now have a 4 coach set of Hal stock having built the Maunsell one about ten years ago from a Phoenix kit.

The Bulleid 4Sub was probably the most useful of all the SR EMUs being the most numerous, and operating on all three Divisions. They

first appeared in 1946 being a development of the Maunsell prototypes that appeared in 1940, but having an all steel structure whereas the Maunsell ones retained a wood and canvas roof covereing. From a modelling perspective they carried SR Bulleid livery

and the BR (S) variation, Then BR early light Malachite, BR late darker Malachite, without and later with a yellow panel, Full yellow fronts, in green and later in blue too. The 4EPB stock that appeared in 1951 was a development of the 4Sub, the main different

was the braking and control systems and the driving cab. The passenger accommodation was identical.

I do hope Hornby will consider the 4Sub (or the 4EPB) at some future date. I have put it on the Suggestions pages at frequent intervals.

[prb8]

A 2 or 4 EPB (Class 415) would be great in Hornby model form or a 405 Sub, subtle front cab differences which would be easy to model for makers...
And how about a 'high speed trains' model range with new APT with lights inside.. now that would be a

Stunner..

[Postman Prat]

Turn your back in this place and you find someone has pinched your signature!!!!! (lol)

[walkingthedog]

Imitation is the finest form of flattery.

[Fishmanoz]

But why would anyone want to in this case WTD?

[Postman Prat]

Don't you start - I had enough with WTD for a few hours Sunday at an exhibition.

Welcome back, by the way, I noticed you were on holiday.

[walkingthedog]

Fishmanoz said:

But why would anyone want to in this case WTD?

There's another version that substitutes 'mockery' for 'flattery'. Maybe I should have put that Fishy.

[LCDR]

As I have pointed out before, the SR EMUs lend themselves nicely to 'design clever' techniques.

The 405 class 4Sub is the pinnacle of the 1936 MV/EE suburban / outer suburban SR EMU design. The common features included a standard 62 foot underframe,

SR 8' bogies (some variation of motor bogies with either 8' 6" or 8' 9" w/b), and underframe control gear. The types included 2Bil, 2Hal, 2Nol, 4Lav, and of course the 4Sub. Most of the pre-War 3Sub also used the 62 foot underframe, although the MCW 1285 series

was mounted on a shorter underframe and the stock converted from the LBSCR AC electrics were on 60 foot LBSCR underframes, but these were only a small percentage of the fleet.

So using the same 2Bil motor coach underframe Hornby can add a new body (as

they will be doing with the 2Hal), but for four car sets would need to modify the trailer car underframe to replace the twin buffers with a centre buffer / rubbing plate. Some minor relocation of underframe detail components may be required (i.e. line fuses).

The 'all steel' 4Sub bodywork is a gift. The motor coaches are identical, and the only real difference between the trailer cars is the interior (one saloon and one compartment) inside the same ten compartment shell. A few sets did have a nine compartment trailer,

but unless they wanted to deliberately include this, it can easily be excluded and the set numbers selected correctly to avoid those sets that had one.

The class 405 / 4Sub was undoubtedly the ubiquitous train type throughout the Southern Region from

1946 to 1980 and cries out to be modelled.

To change the 405 to a 415 4EPB would not be too difficult, but it would require significant re-arrangement of the underfloor equipment, the roof mounted conduits and the modification to the driver cab end.

The trailer cars are otherwise virtually identical .

prb8 said:

A 2 or 4 EPB (Class 415) would be great in Hornby model form or a 405 Sub, subtle front cab differences which would be easy to model for makers...
And how about a 'high

speed trains' model range with new APT with lights inside.. now that would be a Stunner..

[LCDR]

 I can assure you I would buy quite a few sets myself!