LNER "Hush Hush" - Do we really know it's true livery?

[Angus1996]

Hello all, 

 

I have today purchased a South Eastern Finecast LNER W1 Class (Hush Hush) locomotive (complete and assembled, and in perfect running order) for the bargain price of FORTY POUNDS. 

 

The previous owner’s paint job however leaves a lot to be desired, so I have set out to dress it myself in original grey... 

 

…Thus my problems begin.

 

I searched the internet for photographic sources and the differences between other models is startling. Differences to note include:

 

• Black cab roof/Grey cab roof
• Red buffer beam/Grey buffer beam 
• Silver risen LNER lettering/Silver flat LNER lettering/Standard LNER lettering 
• Top of tender black/Top of tender grey

 

Photographic/film sources of the prototype are no help either as they are all black-and-white

 

Given the differences between models, what is the most accurate scheme for me to follow?

 

Welcoming all suggestions.

 

[atom3624]

Can't help you with the colours other than bad humour - any photos I've seen have been in black and white ... so grey ...

 

Please get some photos up when you can of progress as it happens - this is a superb locomotive, and deserves a higher profile I reckon ... even 'though only one was made - pity!

 

Al.

[LCDR]

According to the RCTS history "When running as a Yarrow Water tube boiler locomotive, the locomotive and tender were painted in a dark battleship grey, most appropriate for an engine partly assembled in a shipyard near the Clyde. The sombre colour was relieved by by the steel clothing bands and the boiler and smokebox, and the special number 10000, which appeared on the cabside in 12 inch high white numerals with 1 1/2 inch wide shading picked out in white. The buffer beam was painted grey too, with the number in 4 1/2 inch white figures., also with black shading, picked out in white. This striking livery was retained throughout  No 10000's life with High Pressure Boiler."

The boiler bands appear to be polished stainless steel, a-la Silver Jubilee. 

After rebuilding as a conventional 4-6-4 with Bugatti nose it was given the same livery as the A4  Pacifics, Garter Blue with dark red wheels. During the dark days of the War it got all over black, returning to Garter Blue in December 1946.  BR painted it lined Caledonian blue in 1951 and lined GWR style green from May 1952.

[DonnyRailMan]

I did not know that Hornby had ever produced the 

W1 Hush Hush locomotive, but I think they should though

[atom3624]

They didn't

 

You notice 'Finecast' mentioned, that will refer to something like this: https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklistdatabase/89625/kitbuilt_kb060_gresley_class_w1_4_6_4_10000_hush_hush_in_lner_grey_built_from_resin_kit/stockdetail.aspx

 

It would previously have referred to Wills Finecast.

 

Al.

[DonnyRailMan]

They didn't

 

You notice 'Finecast' mentioned, that will refer to something like this: https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklistdatabase/89625/kitbuilt_kb060_gresley_class_w1_4_6_4_10000_hush_hush_in_lner_grey_built_from_resin_kit/stockdetail.aspx

 

It would previously have referred to Wills Finecast.

 

Al.

  Did not see the name Fine cast,  would br great though should Hornby produced the Hush Hush W1.

[atom3624]

It would be superb!!

 

They should produce this as a simultaneous announcement with 2007 if/as/when - new P2.

 

There is the 'Bugatti nosed' P2 also being produced as 2001 as well - I'm talking full-sized now - which will make 'Heritage Railways' INCREDIBLY interesting in the next 10 years!!

 

Never know, some bored millionaire may make an offer the NRM cannot refuse to put 6229 into steam, as she is now in streamlined form!!

Make that one even more interesting and paint it Blue and change the number ....

 

Al.

[walkingthedog]

Hope they have coal to run all these locos, if they are still allowed to use it. I have my doubts.

[LCDR]

Gresley's "Hush-Hush" No 10000 was an experiment to see if steam could be generated in a watertube boiler which is one where the water is turned to steam inside tubes which surrounded the fire and coillected in drums at the top where all the tubes came together. This arrangement was often used in stationary plant like in a a power station and in some ships, but had never been tried on this scale in a locomotive. On the LMS William Stanier also built an experimental locomotive  4-6-0 No 6399 "Fury" on the frames of a Royal Scot class at about the same time. (Steam engines usually used a fire tube boiler where hot gases from a firebox passed through a boiler full of water to create steam). 

 

Both experiments were not successful, and both locomotives were eventually converted to a normal arrangements, Fury became Royal Scot class 6170 "British Legion" and the 'Hush Hush' was given a normal boiler with a Bugatti front and remained a one-off looking like an A4 but with a four wheel bogie under the cab instead of the Cartazzi truck. Reputedly in rebuilt form  it was the most powerful LNER passenger locomotive . It retained the number 10000 until Nationalisation when BR gave it the number 60700, it was never given a name. 

 

Before World War Two many of the railway companies experimented with alternative types of locomotive, trying different means of raising steam, and different cylinders and transmission. None were particularly successful and were soon discarded. Then the internal combustion engine proved a better method of powering trains and the experiments came to an end.  However there were two notable experiments after World War Two, the first was by Oliver Bulleid when he built the "Leader" which was a double bogie locomotive with multiple cylinders, chain drive, and poppet valves. Needless to say it was not a success and was quickly scrapped. The other was a new type of boiler of the Italian Franco-Crosti type which was fitted to five BR 2-10-0 locomotives. This too was not 100% successful and the boiler was modified to work normally although they retained an unusual appearance right to the end. 

[atom3624]

Great information, as usual.

 

Was 10000 W1 more powerful than the P2?

 

If I remember the W1's boiler limiting pressure was 450 psi, that of the LMS experiment was 900 psi, which suffered the possibly obvious, and very unfortunate consequences - it blew up!!

 

Al.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Don't forget that Mr. Bulleid went to C.I.E. in Ireland, and built the turf (peat) burning loco, which was similar to the Leader...but also failed in the end...diesels being employed...

 

The Leader suffered from too many experimental ideas in one loco.

 

For example, it didn't use mechanical firing, and the fireman had to work in a cubicle part way down the loco, on his own, with no contact with the driver.

 

One cab was next to the smokebox, and got very warm.

 

The boiler was offset to one side, to allow for a passage from cab to cab, via the firing area...this upset the weight balance, and ballast had to be added to attempt to even the weight out.

 

More than one loco were being built at Brighton, but only the one was finished and run...

 

All were scrapped.

 

The Leader was out of time...BR didn't proceed with the project, the management were not interested...they went with more conventional locos, pending electrification..

 

Then politics got involved, and all bets were off!

 

This led to the wide scale and wasteful scrapping of nearly new steam locos in the mad dash to "modernisation" with oil burning diesels...

 

The oil had to be imported...coal fired power stations and electrified railways were a better idea...

 

But the investment went to the Motorways!

[LCDR]

The answer is No and Yes. 

 

As originally built the P2 class was the most powerful, BUT in 1944 they were rebuilt to class A2/2 Pacific and lost their league position.  The W1 (Hush Hush) started off well down the league but in 1937 it was rebuilt as a conventional steam locomotive which took it up to a better position. So before 1944 the P2 was the most powerful, but after 1944 the W1 gained the crown.

 

The A4 class were nowhere near as powerful as either

 

P2 tractive effort 43,462lb originally / 40318lb as rebuilt to A2/2

W1 tractive effort 32000 lb originally / 41437lb as rebuilt

A4 tractive effort 35455lb, A3 tractive effort 32910lb 

 

These figures are all purely theoretical, and the actual power output would vary depending upon a whole variety of factors. 

[LCDR]

One wonders if the Leader could ever have been made to work? It has been argued that it was abandoned by BR because it was too revolutionary, and problematical, but even if it had been made to work it was far too large for the work it was intended for. There were already 30 Merchant Navy class for the top link express trains and 110 Light Pacifics for most long distance passenger work. That was far too many in any case . Electrification would remove steam entiurely from London and the South East suburbs, and in fact before too long all lines east of the Portsmouth Main line would be electrified. The Southern had only a small amount of freight and classes  class S15 (45 engines), N (80 engines) and Q1 (40 engines) were more than adequate for the job. So the Leader would replace the host of smaller 0-6-0, 0-6-2T and 0-4-4T locomotives the Southern relied upon for branch line services, hardly a suitable choice!.

 

I feel that the Leader was very much OVSB's 'pet' which he took with him to the CIE, but still could not make it work. His other pets (the LNER P2s) were only a partial success. And although once the bugs had been ironed out of them his Southern Pacifics were rather good, and even better once Jarvis had made conventional steam engines of them. I suggest pound for pound the Q1 0-6-0 was his best project that worked straight away and gave excellent and reliable service throughout their lives with minimal alteration. 

[atom3624]

Great information.

 

It will be interesting to see the fast-advancing 2007 PoW in action in the next couple of years, and hopefully that the Bugatti-nosed 2001 will see completion as well ... interesting times.

 

As intimated by WTD, it's not certain how far safety and pollution legislation will limit Heritage Railways in the coming years - hopefully exceptions will be permitted.

 

Al.

[DonnyRailMan]

It would be superb!!

 

They should produce this as a simultaneous announcement with 2007 if/as/when - new P2.

 

There is the 'Bugatti nosed' P2 also being produced as 2001 as well - I'm talking full-sized now - which will make 'Heritage Railways' INCREDIBLY interesting in the next 10 years!!

 

Never know, some bored millionaire may make an offer the NRM cannot refuse to put 6229 into steam, as she is now in streamlined form!!

Make that one even more interesting and paint it Blue and change the number ....

 

Al.

Yes they are trying to build the Bugatti nosed P2 here in Doncaster a mate of mine is involved with it.

 Sadly Problem is all the money going to Darlington boys. 

[atom3624]

The reshaped P2 'grows on you', but must admit I prefer the original shape ... as is 2007 PoW.

 

Al.