End to End layout

[Scotty73]

Hi,

I am currently in the process of designing a end to end layout and just wondering if it is possible to program the loco to run automatically, like a program mode that records the movement so it can be played back allowing me to look after the shutting yard, i have the hornby elite controller, not sure if this is going to be possible, unfortunately i dont have enough room to put loops in.

[96RAF]

You can get DCC shuttle modules. You just set that loco running and the module takes care of the automatic reversal and its timing.

 

If you have Railmaster you can program the loco to shuttle.

 

If your loco decoder was a Hornby Sapphire that decoder can also be programmed to run a series of events such as a back and forth shuttle.

[Scotty73]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice RAF96, i do like the idea of using the sapphire decoder keeps it all simple ish, now for my second question, i have a pendolina that is chipped using 2 hornby R8249 decoders, can i put a sapphire chip in the main car and keep the R8249 in the dummy car?

[96RAF]

You can - but the R8249 will take no notice of the Sapphire doing its thing, so there will be a clash of wills when the Sapphire swaps directions and the R8249 is still pedalling hard the other way, so the answer is no If you want to use the Auto-ops feature.

[2e0dtoeric]

Does the 'dummy' car have a motor, or is it a real dummy that just makes noises and flashes lights?

I don't have one - not appropriate on my layout!

[Chrissaf]

Before you jump in with both feet and start buying Sapphires, you might like to review this thread to see what is involved with setting up a Sapphire to perform a shuttle action. Personally, if the layout design can accommodate it [total track separation is required......see later reply next page], I would use an external track based third party 'DCC Shuttle Module', then the decoder used doesn't matter.

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3rd post down on the page.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/28780/?p=2

[96RAF]

I have Sapphires but I too would go for an external module. The cost being around the £-delta between a basic decoder and a Sapphire.

[Scotty73]

Okay, so if going with a module, how does that work and how easy are they to set up and include in my dcc layout, and more to the point where can you buy them?

[Bulleidboy]

You might want to look at - http://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/ 

[Chrissaf]

BB failed to note that your layout is DCC. The shuttle controllers on the Heathcote web site are all Analogue DC and can't be used on a DCC layout.

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See this site instead, Block Signalling.

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Even Block Signalling are predominantly DC Analogue shuttle controllers, but they do 1 x DCC one, namely the SDCC1.

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http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/index.php/dcc-shuttle-sdcc1

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The web page above gives the information about how it is connected and works. Basically you configure the SDCC1 with the Loco DCC address that you want to control and wire the SDCC1 to the track as per the drawing on the web page. It uses breaks in the track to detect the loco presence at each end of the shuttle line.

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IMPORTANT NOTE:

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This module does not use the existing DCC track voltage that is on the rest of the layout. The shuttle unit generates its own DCC output voltage from a 12 volt DC input supply.

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If the unit does not connect to the main layout DCC power. Then this would mean that the length of track that is used for the shuttle operation MUST be totally physically and electrically isolated from the rest of the DCC powered layout track. That is to say no point routes being between the shuttle route and the rest of the layout, not even if using Insulated Rail Joiners between them.

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This also means that your normal controller will have no control of this or any other loco placed on this isolated section. The SDCC1 has to have complete autonomous control over this track section.

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I should imagine that this limitation may exist on any other brands of DCC compatible shuttle controllers as well. If your layout track can't be physically and electrically configured this way, and you want to mix loco traffic on the same track section. Then probably this means going with the Sapphire solution, or controlling your Elite via RailMaster software where you can create a RM program to control your locos, even ones without Sapphires in them.

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Postscript:

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After writing my concerns above...I found these lines of text within the SDCC1 product web page, that confirms that the shuttle track must be separate from the main layout.

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/media/tinymce_upload/da22cf3b5d5849b51e3173ed820466f5.jpg

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/media/tinymce_upload/aa9293c5bd57a674d67a26b05f408397.jpg

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[Bulleidboy]

Sorry - I missed that point. BB

[Scotty73]

Hi,

Yes the second unit of the pendolina is just lights and nothing else 

[jane1707819582]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice RAF96, i do like the idea of using the sapphire decoder keeps it all simple ish, now for my second question, i have a pendolina that is chipped using 2 hornby R8249 decoders, can i put a sapphire chip in the main car and keep the R8249 in the dummy car?

Yes but the direction lighting will go out sync when reversing 

[jane1707819582]

 I recall the directional lighting switches off during auto running and requires turning on again after every event 

[96RAF]

 I recall the directional lighting switches off during auto running and requires turning on again after every event 

 

Interestng - I shall investigate next week.

[morairamike]

Lenz silver decoders have a shuttle function. Assymetric function. This will stop the train, hold it for a while and then send it off in the opposite direction. The asymmetric power is easily applied by wiring 4 diodes anode to cathode and then wire one diode across the 4 in the opposite direction. This is then connected to one of the rails. That rail is isolated from the others on the same side. You'll need one  set of diodes at each end, the isolated track must accomodate the complete loco.

I had  a 2-EPB running on my old layout under this system.

[96RAF]

 I recall the directional lighting switches off during auto running and requires turning on again after every event 

 

Interestng - I shall investigate next week.

 

 

I have tested this and can say without doubt that when an event alters the loco direction the lights switch to that direction.

 

My test was:

Event 1 loco fwd at speed. Lights were on.

Event 2 loco stop with direction reversed - lights swap to the other way.

Event 3 loco rev at speed. Lights still on.

Event 4 loco stop with direction set to fwd again - lights switch back to normal direction.

[jane1707819582]

 I recall the directional lighting switches off during auto running and requires turning on again after every event 

 

Interestng - I shall investigate next week.

 

 

I have tested this and can say without doubt that when an event alters the loco direction the lights switch to that direction.

 

My test was:

Event 1 loco fwd at speed. Lights were on.

Event 2 loco stop with direction reversed - lights swap to the other way.

Event 3 loco rev at speed. Lights still on.

Event 4 loco stop with direction set to fwd again - lights switch back to normal direction.

Mine turn themselves off .curious !

[Fishmanoz]

Jane and Rob, what decoders were you using?

[96RAF]

Jane and Rob, what decoders were you using?

 

Hornby Sapphire using the Auto-Ops feature Fishy.

[Fishmanoz]

Figured that Rob, and when Jane replies, I'm expecting her to have a different answer.

[jane1707819582]

Jane and Rob, what decoders were you using?

 

Hornby Sapphire using the Auto-Ops feature Fishy.

Not really a fix , but a work around I put the controller in 128 step mode and left the loco at speed 1 , the lights stay on .

[RMRED]

I must admit, I'm struggling to see how and end-to-end shutlle - or any automated program - can work without positive detection of the loco's position. The distance any given loco on my layout travels in any given time depends on many factors - whether its going forward, or backward, or how long the loco has been running, whether the room is warm or cold, etc. etc.

Timed processes just do not work accurately enough no matter how well you calibrate - or attempt to calibrate - the program timings. How can you have a train stop at a station, or switch points, without train detection ? It could be in the wrong place!

I bought Railmaster with the objective of controlling and automating my locos centrally, yet this (coupled with the ability to invoke multiple scripts - or 'programs' - independently) is a major limitation to any form of full automation.

[walkingthedog]

I used to gave a shuttle train on my layout over 20 years ago using a Heathcote IRDOT and shuttle module. Took about 15 minutes to wire up. Dead easy.

[96RAF]

The working principle of most shuttle units is the loco is detected passing a certain point on track at each end. Some use IR sensors, some a reed switch and magnet, some use a simple diode across a break in one rail. The module sees this detection and cuts the track power, before waiting a set time and reversing  the power. The loco  moves out in reverse and the same thing happens at the other end, ad-infinitum. Modules are available for DC and DCC working on similar but different power swapping methods obviously.

 

The way RM works is to a timetable. Do this thing for so many seconds, do that thing, do the other thing, repeat as required. The problem with time based events is creep due to mechanical issues, motor warming up, load on the loco, etc, so it is a half baked way of doing things, as evidenced by RM recommending you crash into the buffers everynow and then to reset things.