Mallard Teak Coaches?

[Minimitch23]

Afternoon all. My wife and daughter have just bought me the Somerset Belle DCC set marking my first venture into the world of digital railways, so to go with it I bought myself the TTS Mallard so I had a 2nd train to run until I can get my old locos converted. I'm struggling to find out what coaches are the correct ones though, am I right I thinking that the Gresley Teak Coaches are correct for her in the classic LNER garter blue livery? 

[2e0dtoeric]

Or the Teaks in teak finish!  Garter Blue (metal bodies) were a lot later, as steam was being phased out.

[Minimitch23]

Great, been looking at the teak finish ones on ebay, will go ahead and buy some. Thanks a lot

[The Doc]

Be aware that Hornby make two versions of the gresley Teak finish coaches.  The shorter-than-scale older models are less realistic but run well, rarely derailing, and are much cheaper.  They are often available as split from part of a train set such as the Flying Scotsman.  The superdetailed 61' 6" models are several times more expensive, but have a beautiful paint finish.  Make sure you don't pay too much if you are opting for the more basic versions.  You can often pick up a rake of three of these for less than £20, whereas the superdetailed models are usually upwards of £30 per coach.

[The Doc]

@Eric,

 

I think Minimitch is referring to Mallard in garter blue livery, not the coaches.

[LCDR]

The LNER used special coaches on certain prestige trains, but otherwise used the Gresley teak body carriages on everything else. 

 

The special trains were -

 

(1 ) -  the  flush sided carriages clad in aluminium finished 'Rexine' formed a set which was used the Silver Jubilee express. It ran from Newcastle to Kings Cross  and back. It ran daily from 1935 until 1939.

 

The LNER A4s with silver livery were originally intended to work this train.

 

(2) - the two tone blue set which was used on the Coronation express which ran from Kings Cross to Edinburgh and back. It ran daily from 1937 to 1939.

 

The Garter Blue livery matched this train very well, however all LNER A4 Streamliners eventually got this livery including those originally silver or green

 

All the other trains on the East Coast Main line were varnished teak bodied Gresley stock.  After World War 2 the special liveries were not resumed.

[Trev52A]

@ Minimitch23

Don't forget, to be strictly accurate/as per prototype, the coaching stock you need will depend on which version of Mallard you have.

 

If the loco does not have the commemorative 'speed plaques' on the boiler side it represents it in LNER days, so teak coaches would be highly appropriate. If it does have the plaques it is in current 'as preserved' condition. (It never carried them in LNER days, strangely enough!)

 

As far as I am aware it only ran on the mainline as preserved in 1988, (although I stand to be corrected on this) to mark the 50th anniversary of the record run and all the pictures I have seen show it with 'heritage'-type maroon coaches.

 

For most people I suppose this is not too big a deal but worth pointing out.

 

Trevor

[LCDR]

Liveries and numbers can be a minefield.

 

Mallard was painted plain black in June 1942 as a wartime austerity measure, and restored to Garter blue in  March 1948, in early BR days.

 

In the meantime two significant changes had occured. The valences which covered the driving wheels were removed in 1942 and not replaced.

 

The entire LNER locomotive fleet was renumbered during 1946. Mallard changed from 4468 to 22 in September 1946. It became E22 in March 1948, and 60022 on September 1949.

 

At the same time as Mallard was restored to Garter Blue in March 1948 the 'Speed Plaques' were fitted to the side of the boiler casing.

 

BR lined blue was applied  in September 1949, and replaced by BR lined green in July 1952.

 

Complicated?

[Postman Prat]

Hi LC&DR and also Trev

 

First of all a further pre-war special  -  West Riding.

 

Secondly, a couple of weeks ago, afternoon tv had this guy on who brought with him one of the plaques as per Mallard. (?)  Furthermore he asserts that this dates back to 1938 and it was originally given to his father by some senior LNER guy (I wasn't paying  much attention so don't know the programme nor who the senior LNER guy was.)

 

How I failed to note the details, I don't know. I've seen no mention of this in the enthusiast press but surely I can't be the only one to have seen this??

 

😮

[walkingthedog]

Think it was Antique Roadshow. Guys grandfather made the plaques for Mallard. He made three and was told he could keep the spare if my memory serves me right. 

[Postman Prat]

Complicated......an understatement !!

 

I may have fallen down on recording the details but I'm sure he said it was 1938. I reckon he saw that date on the plate and added 2 to 2 and made 5   (WTD - do not query my maths!!). Also just happened to make an extra one so there wouldn't be any record 

 

😉

[Trev52A]

I also saw the Antiques Roadshow episode last month(?) and was amazed at the implications, which suggests the plaques carried by Mallard today are not the ones fitted by BR in 1948. (I think this was done prior to the loco representing the ex-LNER in the locomotive trials of that year.)

 

I made some notes during the programme with the idea of following this up but never got round to it! Apparently the chap's father had been an apprentice at Doncaster Works and was told to make three new plaques as the originals 'had gone missing'. (I wonder if this happened in 1963 when the loco was being restored to LNER condition for preservation?) He managed to find the pattern originally used and duly had three made, to include a spare in case there was a problem with one of the other two. This third one went into the stores and the chap's father bought it from BR when he retired in 1983 for £8.50(!) (if I remember correctly) - and the son had the receipt to prove it. The 'expert' did not correct him when he impled the originals date back to 1938. With the receipt he suggested it was worth about £5000. 

 

I was checking back through some old magazines and found in the April Railway World an article by Cecil J. Allen, no less, in which he states (incorrectly) alongside a picture: 'One of the plaques which the LNER affixed to Mallard after its world record run.' (Italics are mine) No wonder there is confusion! Every account I have seen says BR fitted them and I have never seen a picture pre-1948 which shows them.

 

I am sure the episode of the programme could be found on iPlayer.

 

Trevor

 

[Trev52A]

Additional to my post above-

 

If anyone wants to track down the episode of the Antiques Roadshow, it came from Compton Verney and it must have been about three weeks ago.

 

Cheers

Trevor

[Postman Prat]

We are having lots of dialog with Mortgage brokers etc at the present time, and many talks are in the evenings - they don't seem to have homes to go to. My viewing/videoing is going 'all to hell' to put it in the vernacular and I'm losing track of my recordings. Quite possibly most of that on Antique Roadshow was missed (by me) since I don't remember too much about the item. 

 

Have I started something?

 

[Minimitch23]

Thanks for all the info everyone. Managed to get a rake of the older teak ones for £20 online. Maybe one day I'll replace them with some of the super detail ones but for now I just wanted to get something on my track for it to pull that's not some red BR coaches from my Night Mail Express set I had in the early 90s

[JJ73]

To make things easy - just "Go with the flow!!!"

[Tolak]

No mention of the "Walter K Whigham" 60028 in experimental purple (R3701).

Would that have been at the same time as the "plum and spilt milk" coach colours?

So would this be very early Mk1 coaches, or just a repaint of the legacy coaches, to provide a rake of the appropriate express coaches?

I have no recollection of there ever being coaches in that colour scheme in model format, but only recently having recognised the colour scheme, I may have considered the colours a corruption of the "blood and custard" scheme.

I suspect once I have worked out what I have, and done a bit more research, I will be looking to create the "plum and spilt milk" to support the experimental purple.

(I now have 7 colours of A4; Silver, Garter blue, Black, LNER green, Experimental purple, Express blue, BR Green.  I hadn't noticed that BR reintroduced Garter blue, without valances, so there may be more to seek out! )

[LCDR]

This Post might have been better starting afresh.

 

The early experimental BR Express liveries (Purple, or Blue with LNWR lining) were replaced within about a year or so with the standard express  Blue with black and white lining, (Caledonian Blue) which was supposed to be the standard for all 8P classes. Not all locomotives received this before BR had a change of heart and decided ALL passenger classes were to be painted in Dark Green with orange and black lining (GWR green) .

 

At the same time experiments were being carried out with new liveries for carriages, including Plum & Spilt Milk (LNWR livery again), and Chocolate and Cream (GWR livery again). Only a limited number of sets of carriages were used for the experiment, so all the rest retained the pre-Nationalisation liveries. So on the Eastern and North Eastern regions carriages in both real varnished teak, and pseudo teak (usually plain brown) were the norm. On the London Midland region LMS Crimson Lake was still everywhere, and in Scottish Region both both LNER and LMSR liveries abounded.

 

The Western Region and Southern Region persisted with Chocolate and Cream, and Green respectively. 

 

This remained the case until 1949 when a new BR livery appeared. This was a brighter red colour (Crimson), (Definately NOT Plum, which was a very dark shade, almost black) with cream around the windows on corridor stock. BR confusingly called this colour Crimson Lake but it was nowhere near the former LMSR Crimson Lake, and has been causing problems with modellers ever since!

 

So 60028 (which was ALWAYS in Kings Cross, but in green, on days when I went spotting there!) in purple would look OK on LNER teaks, or on a set of plum and spilt milk (but probably not BR Crimson & Cream, which didn't start to appear until Sir Walter was painted Blue).

 

60028 was Purple between June 1948 and October 1950 and BR blue from October 1950 to February 1952.

[dadad]

Hi there,

the first extra loco that I bought was the mallard, I did some research and decided that the teak coaches would look good.  I went to a model shop near my daughters during avisit, the owner greated me with, "What era do you model?"  after a moment s thought and inspired by the near to me Nene Valey Railway I said, "Modern era preservation railway."  "Oh!" he said, "anything goes then." I have since heard that a lot of modellers do the same so that any loco can pull any stock, after all it is YOUR railway.  I now have an interesting mix of locos and stock and stuff goes on the track as it needs exercising.

 

Good luck,  John.

[LCDR]

I didn't answer all your entire question.

 

The 1948  'Plum and Spilt Milk' and 'Chocolate and Cream' was only applied to former company stock. Mark 1 carriages were still two years into the future.. The Southern applied it to Maunsell Restriction 4 carriages,but  I am less familiar with the other companies. I seem to think it was also applied to ex LMSR Stanier P3 stock and ex LNER Thompson flush panelled stock, it would not have looked good on Gresley panelled coaches. I guess Hawksworth coaches being fairly new were chosen for the Western Region.

 

Only enough coaches were repainted to form a handful of trains on prestigious services. It was after all an exercise to gauge public opinion.

[Postman Prat]

The Thompson flush sided coaches were painted in pseudo teak to match the Gresleys, some time pre-BR. I don't know that they were considered as experimental in the same way as the others refered to in your reply.    😀 

[LCDR]

PP

I was referring to the experimental liveries tried by BR in 1948, (plum & spilt milk similar to LNWR, and Chocolate and Cream like GWR) where a few sets of carriages were painted in those colours to gauge public opinion. 

 

I do know that Thompson painted some his stock in a pseudo teak finish, and others, usually NPCCS and suburban, were in an all over brown probably a hangover from wartime austerity.This was a standard for post war steel panelled stock until the BR liveries appeared in 1949.  Gresleys of course were supposed to be varnished, but I gather some got painted brown too.

 

Oddly enough London Transport used a similar brown but without the scumble for the T stock and Dreadnought stock hauled by the electric locomotives which carried Metropolitan Crimson Lake right up until they were replaced by silver multiple units in 1960.