Newbie LNER question

[Jack Regan]

Hi guys, I wonder if I could ask a Hobby newbie question? Which LNER Locomotives were used to pull the teak coaches Hornby make? Many thanks for any help.

[jane1707819582]

Always look nice behind an A4 in garter blue .

[atom3624]

W1 in Doncaster Green would be nice ... !!

 

Green P2 as well.

 

Scottie and other Gresley A1/A3's.

 

Totally agree with Jane2 - nice blue A4 - Mallard, Sir Nigel, or others ... would be nice.

 

Al.

[Jack Regan]

Brilliant,  thanks both of you, most helpful.

[GeoFF03]

Don't rule out the mixed trafic types like the B1 or B17 or V2 ect.

[LCDR]

The LNER came into existence on 1st January 1923, and continued to operate until 31st December 1947. The official colour for LNER carriages was varnished teak, although some of the coaches from constituent companies may have had painted liveries and which may have carried their original colours for many years. Carriages built with steel external panels were painted variously a brown colour, or imitation teak effect.  Coaches for excursion traffic were painted green with cream upper panels, and special liveries were applied to the coaches of the 'Coronation' and 'Silver Jubilee' premier express trains. Pullman carriages ran in the Pullman Company livery of Umber and Cream.

 

The LNER had corridor carriages for long distance trains, but also non-corridor carriages for suburban or local trains. Hornby has made both kinds. 

 

Now as to which classes of locomotive pulled these coaches of course the big express engines go to the top of the list. So Pacific classes A1, A2, A3 and A4 will be there together with the solitary W1 4-6-4, these would be seen at the head of trains of corridor coaches. . But then there were many 4-6-0 and 2-6-2 types which also hauled express trains. Hornby make the B1, and B17 4-6-0, and Bachmann makes the V2 2-6-2. After that there were the 4-4-0 locos which might work both expresses and local services. Hornby make the D49 (Hunt and Shire class), and the Claude Hamilton D16. Bachmann make the Director 4-4-0 D11 class. They also make the C1 4-4-2 Atlantic. 

 

Then come the tank engines, although they may be more at home on non-corridor carriages, then could haul corridor carriages as well. Hornby make the L1 2-6-2T which comes in towards the end of the LNER , and the N2  0-6-2T which was a common suburban locomotive. Oxford Rail has just introduced the N7 0-6-2T which was the mainstay of the Eastern section suburban services out of Liverpool Street., Bachmann make the V1 / V3 2-6-2T which was also a suburban class especially in the North East and in Scotland. 

 

That is just about it for ready to run types.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

There's also Hornby's B12 4-6-0 tender Locomotives. 😉

 

Unless your B1 was meant to be B12?

[JJ73]

@ J. R - Here are some Photos of what.LNER Locomotives I use to pull the teak coaches with sometimes.../media/tinymce_upload/4ab01c346ee8d1a8f7b346e7f651e5cc.JPG

Spot the differance between the above & below photos - & say why what the differance is - (Sarahagain should be good at this!!!  😉 😀)

/media/tinymce_upload/4c71159c0a98de476cb03718fe3d64ac.JPG

/media/tinymce_upload/d2b5b8d3f8be1f4233d9d7f3c7ab8d18.JPG

An LNER Holden 'B12' Class 4-6-0 No. 8572

 

/media/tinymce_upload/f38f27a9c35e69380e0c6964cd767d32.JPG

 

R3405 LNER J50 Class No. '585'

 

/media/tinymce_upload/219554efdb611589c3a44cf869a85bec.JPG

 

LNER Green Arrow Class 'V2' No 4771

Again - Do you reconise where some of these Loco's come from Sarahagain???

[LCDR]

There's also Hornby's B12 4-6-0 tender Locomotives. 😉

 

Unless your B1 was meant to be B12?

Sorry, missed the B12!

 

I have deliberately excluded Hornby's J83 and J50  and Bachmann's J72 because these were specifically for shunting BUT of course they may have been used for carriage shunting. 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

@JJ.

 

The second A4 is the GBL version, as is the B12....

 

The V2 "Green Arrow" is GBL as well...

 

GBL = Great British Locomotives Collection static display models....

[NWR-Gordon-4]

@Jimyjames

 

I like your images, but they are affecting myself. Let me explain.  😀

 

The reason the images are affecting me, is becuase either the brake coach is behind the locomotive, but then there's no second brake coach at the end of the train, plus the brake coach and / or the composite coach is the wrong way around.

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

[LCDR]

I think we can forgive that on this occasion   😆 😆 😆

[atom3624]

Sounds like something DG may pick-up on .... !!

😉

 

Al.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

If there is  a passenger train consisting of two coaches, only one with accommodation for a guard, with handbrake, etc. Then it makes perfect sense to have the guards accommodation as near the centre of the train as possible.... 😉

[JJ73]

@ Sarahagain :- YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA - You go Girl!!! I knew you would get it right  😀 😆 Well Done

 

 

@ Jacob :-

 

Just for you - to keep you happy my friend

 

/media/tinymce_upload/a828d79b5a8b17151a31c8f89f6805ad.JPG

 

I hope that I've worked / got this out right...The Gresley 'K3' with the Brake Carriage at the end & the composite Carriage is the right way round with the bigger window facing left.

Just to double check - The Brake Carriage is the 1 with the say the big doors @ the back end so they can load the luggage, post page, etc & the composite Carriage is the 1 in the front just with seats - yes???

& I hope that my new image does not affect you now!!!

[LCDR]

Where to put the brake van has been a topic of debate for 170 years!. Before automatic brakes became a legal requirement in 1889, after the dreadful Armagh runaway train accident, the brakes were applied manually by a guard or guards when the driver whistled for brakes. And since 1841 the Railway Inspectors from the Board of Trade (A government department) made recommendation that a guards van was to be the last vehicle and  on longer trains every fourth vehicle should be a brake van with a guard who could apply the brakes to help the driver to stop the train. 

 

Needless to say the railway companies were none too happy about this because all the extra brake vans needed more powerful locomotives to pull the trains and all the extra guards needed paying wages. However stopping a moving train was a dangerous procedure and many accidents occured.  The companies tried all manner of schemes to apply brakes on more coaches all worked from the guards van and most of these used a chain or rope which the guard would operate by a windlass or crank handle, to operate the brakes on adjacent vehicles but it was slightly better but rarely worked well. 

In the 1870s brakes worked by air or by vacuum were invented in the USA and some British companies tried them out. These were costly to install so they were slow to adopt them. and many companies just didn't bother. The early versions of air and vacuum brakes were non-automatic in any case so only marginally better than the chain or rope brake.

 

In 1875 the Midland Railway hosted brake trials at Newark where all the different types were tried out. The Westinghouse Automatic Air Brake was the clear winner but still the Companies resisted adopting it. 

 

A serious accident near Doncaster, and the terrible runaway at Armargh in which many people lost their lives swayed public opinion and Parliament passed a law in 1889 which amongst other things required all passenger trains to use an automatic brake. There was a choice between automatic air brake made by Westinghouse, and the Automatic Vacuum brake made by Gresham and Cravens. Some Companies chose one, and some chose the other.

 

Once automatic brakes on passenger trains became compulsary the need to scatter brake vans along the train disappeared. However having a brake van in both the first and last position in the train gave some protection to the passengers in the event of a collision especially as the carriages were still made of wood and would disintergrate in a collision, and so the Men from the Ministry continued to reccommend this.

 

The companies therefore issued a rule to say that whenever possible the first and last vehicle should be a brake vehicle with the brake end outermost. BR continued to have this rule until the 1960s. Trains of one or two coaches would normally only have a single guards van, and to simplify despatch arrangements it would normally be at the rear, partly to act as protection, but also to simplify the 'Right Away' dispatch procedure, because the guard could see all the doors between him and the locomotive. People had a nasty habit of falling asleep and only waking up as the guard blew his whistle, and would leap out as the train started off leaving the door open behind them. 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

So, what about a 2 coach train with only one brake coach?

 

If it was running back and to on, say, a branch line?

 

My experience is only later 1960s on...

 

And influenced by the Southern Region EMU, CIG, BIG, VEP...etc.

 

4 car sets with the guards accommodation near the centre of the train, usually in the non driving motor car.

 

Obviously, unit trains are a special case?

[LCDR]

/media/tinymce_upload/9f51640bfac0b9fc214ee84ffd94448b.jpg

EXTRACT FROM PAGE 89 OF THE 1960 BR SECTIONAL APPENDIX TO THE BOOKS OF RULES AND REGULATIONS AND WORKING TIMETABLES

The rule (see above) was worded 'as far as practicable'. Clearly remarshalling a two coach set could be an operating inconvenience. The Great Western however went to the trouble of creating the ';B' set which did have a brake van at each end of a two coach train to avoid remarshalling. 

 

Most big stations did however have station pilots, shunting engines, to re-marshall attach and detach carriages and vans at start and end of the journey, and also at important intermediate points.

 

Station work is quite simple nowadays, but in days gone by  (certainly pre-1960) was very intensive, and great fun to watch.

 

 

[LCDR]

The integral brake van in the 4Cig, 4Big and 4Vep etc. appeared after BR relaxed the train marshalling protocols. The 4Cig first appeared in 1963 was revolutionary at the time. The 4EPB, 4Cep, 4Bep and the 3 and 4 car SR units which preceeded them all had a guards van at either end. The 6Pul, 6Pan , 5Bel, 4Cor etc. all had a van at either end.

 

2 car electric sets did only have one van, but there would never be more than one coach behind the van. 

 

The 2 coach diesel mechanicals did indeed put the guard centrally in a two car set, which was useful for the type of service they were intended to operate and was perhaps the thin end of the wedge. 

 

When first introduced the HST had a guards van in both power cars, but with the introduction of the TGS placed the guard's office at one end only.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Thanks.

 

Informative as ever LC&DR. 😀

[LCDR]

It is sometimes difficult to envisage how railways used to operate in the light of what they do now.  As the old dinosaurs like me trip off the mortal coil there are very few people left who have first hand knowledge of the trivia and so if someone wants to do it 'properly' it is less easy to find somebody to ask.  Nowadays very few passenger trains have a locomotive on the front, and those which do are usually coupled into fixed rakes (IC225 and Nova 3 for example) so they pull one way and push the other. The guards van on a freight train is a thing of the past, and the skillful practices such as stopping an unfitted freight train or AWB are just a memory. Even throwing up a three link coupling with a shunting pole is a rare event, as more and more vehicles are fitted with automatic couplings. 

 

Train spotting in the 1950s was a lot more fun. Every large main station had a shunting engine or two which scurried back and forth moving odd vehicles about to attach or detatch from passing trains which stopped there. You might be able to blag a footplate ride on one, and even get the chance to shovel coal into the firebox under the supervision of the fireman. There were hundreds of goods yards, nearly every station had one, and you stood a good chance of seeing a locomotive batting wagons about in many of them.  Goods trains were not uniform either and there would usually be a wide range of different types of wagon in the train. When waiting for your train you stood a good chance of seeing a freight train often more than one, clattering through before your train arrived. 

 

Station staff were a mixed bunch, some were friendly but there were many too who were downright miserable and chase you off as soon as your platform ticket expired. A platform ticket cost one penny and was valid for an hour. Some ticket collectors made a point of clipping the hour and woe betide you if they caught you overstaying!

 

[NWR-Gordon-4]

@Jimyjames

 

Thank you for that image. You did not have to take it or post it, but thank you anyway.  😀

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

[JJ73]

@ LC :- As alway I do enjoy reading what you write but don't always understand, so I can't some not take it in which I find hard some time to "absorb info"!!!

 

@ Jacob :- No worries - I always enjoy taking photos for the Lovely folk on the Hornby Forum!!!  😀