Ground signals - Scale OO

[keithp1707821843]

I have just bought a pack of ground signals from Ratio (Hornby don't sell them), and I was quite surprised at the size. They were very fiddly to build & glue and when I compare them to other items (for example mile posts or gradient posts) they appear very small.

So are they that small or are items a different size - even though it says OO?

Keith

 

[Flashbang]

Hi

Ground signals are not very large. They stand around no more than 3 feet high and are some 15 to 18 inches wide.  So in OO they will be very small! 

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[keithp1707821843]

OK - as I thought. That explains why the kit is very very small!

[LCDR]

The one posted by Flashbang is a typical Southern Railway type (I believe originated with Westinghouse)

 

There are other designs which can be found on other railways / regions - 

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This is at Goathland former North Eastern region. The full disc is usual on all regions apart from the Southern.

 

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In colour light situations lights are used instead, red & white horizontally meant stop, and two white lights at 65 degrees said proceed. (In recent times using LEDs the red and white becomes two reds).

The blue panels above will display letters and/or numbers to indicate alternative routes when the signal is cleared.

 

 

[JJ73]

@ LC :- In your 1st photo above - just notice - those point are set dangerously :-

1. if a loco was to go along that bit of track - it would come of the track!!!

2. were does that track go too??? part from no where - they just STOP!!! why do you think they done it like that for - what was the purpose of it???

[JeremiahBunyan]

@ LC :- In your 1st photo above - just notice - those point are set dangerously :-

1. if a loco was to go along that bit of track - it would come of the track!!!

2. were does that track go too??? part from no where - they just STOP!!! why do you think they done it like that for - what was the purpose of it???

 

It is called a "catch-point". There's different designs i.e. single blade, double blade, R/H, L/H etc. A catch-point is usually installed at the end of loop lines, sidings and/or just before a track enters the mainlines.

 

Yes if a loco or a piece of rolling stock went over that, it would come off the track, but catch-points are always guarded by a signal. The signals are usually synced with the point. So if the point is closed it will show red, if the points are opened it will turn to yellow.

 

The track doesn't go anywhere, it's not meant to. It'spurpose is to derail any runaway locos, wagons or coaches and prevent them from going further and causing a major accident. Thus saving lots of lives, money and preventing serious damage.

 

I'm not sure about the UK, but in India in the hilly sections, you often get a catch-siding which is a siding that that's only seen on the lines going down/descending the hills. These sidings are usually built into the hill side and go upwards to slow runaway trains down. These sidings are covered with sand also to slow down the trains. And at stations where there's loop lines, if they don't have space, they install a catch-point. If they have space they install a small catch-siding that's usually twice or thrice the length of a loco that goes into a rectangular pit filled with sad that onec again serves the same purpose.

[Buz]

Hi Jimyjames

Here is an explanation of the track in the picture

Your point one, Exactly what is meant to happen if a train try's to pass the signal at red or a wagon etc rolls past it.

Your point two, yes straight into the dirt, It is designed like that it is called a catch point or a trap point or a slip blade depending on where you are in the world.

It is not a Derail that is something else entirely that does the same thing.

It is a safety device to protect the main line, it is supposed to derail the train or runaway wagon before it gets to the main line they are normally found at yard exits but can be in other locations where needed for operational reasons.

The last thing you want is the Midnight Mail hit by a runaway wagon  or a train exiting from the yard when it shouldn't be.

The brown box behind the signal is a mechanical detector it stops the signal being cleared when the points are normal in this case normal means set to derail a train.

When the points are reversed and it is safe for the passage of a train the detector allows the signal to be cleared.

When the points are incorrectly set IE have not gone completely across in either direction for what ever reason the signal cannot be cleared.

As a aside if you want catch points on your layout for the same reasons Peco make them and they do work as described so have to be positioned correctly and you have to be sure that they work properly and I would have a working catch point signal or indicator as per relevant rules with it for obvious reasons

regards John

[LCDR]

Slight alteration to the description of the points shown in my first picture, they are called TRAP POINTS.

 

Trap points are provided at all places where sidings and loop lines connect to a main line to derail a runaway train which passes the signal at danger. They work in conjunction with the points in the main line usually operated by the same lever in the signalbox.  Where space is limited then a DERAILER may be provided instead. This sits on top of the rail and directs the wheels off the line. (the yellow device)

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CATCH POINTS are provided on gradients to derail runaway vehicles which have broken away from a train climbing the gradient, perhaps because a coupling has broken, and derail them before they can hit into a following train.These are usually operated by a spring which keeps them permanently open but often include a lever so they can be held closed if a train needs to pass over them in the wrong direction in an emergency.

 

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In this picture there are TRAP POINTS on the loop line to the left, it ends in a sand drag just beyond the signal, and CATCH POINTS on the line on the right. The gradient here is 1 in 49 falling away from the camera.

[Rana Temporia]

There used to be some catch points on the Bolton to Wigan line near Westhoughton Golf Club to catch rolling stock that may have broken away and run off down the hill towards Crow's Nest Junction. They were removed some time ago, (25 years, doesn't seem that long!)  probably after the Metal Box factory closed and we no longer got a daily goods train along the Line

 

JJ there are similar 'traps' or escape lanes on the roads, some in your area on the A6. Basically it's a short lane off to the left of he main carriageway followed by a sand trap to stop runaway vehicles on steep sections of road and prevent them running into other vehicles. 

 

There was an article on trap/catch points in one of the model railway mags a few years ago that explained their purpose and where to site them on your layout. I probably have it somewhere although I have just had a big clear out of magazines and sent them to one of the local charity shops. I probably need another clear out but there is always an article I 'might' need in the future  ☹️

[LCDR]

Once all freight trains were to be run fully fitted, so if there was a brewak away both portions would be brought to a halt by the automatic brakes, BR took the decision to remove catch points to save the cost of maintenance. Trap points are still to be found although the introduction of TPWS has made their use less vital. However TPWS will not stop a run-away wagon escaping from a siding, and there have been cases where staff have forgotten to apply the handbrake properly and wind / gravity has cause the wagon to roll.

[81F]

 I actually have two catch points on my layout at either end of the "private" loop which will serve a loading wharf. one is linked toto the point on the mainline so if the point on the mainline is set against the siding any train that would otherwise derail on the main line derails well before it. I chose to put them in because they were there at the location oin which I have based my layout.

 

As I have had the occasional run-away with DCC I can certainly vouch for the fact that they do prevent worse accidents!

 

[JJ73]

@ J. B. , Buz, LC, Rana & 81F!!!  😀 It's not the 1st time I've seen that "Catchment" b4 & have seen it else where & have always wondered what it was for & why they done it like that - but thanks to Lovely Folk I now understand why & I thank you - which reminds me - many years ago I went for a bike ride along the High Peak Trail (an old Railway line converted so that you can now walk / Cycle along it just like the M. T.!!!) It was built between 1825 & 1830 - At Black Rocks nr Cromform is a very steep incline & back in the day when it was a Railway @ the top of the Hill it had Large Steam Powered Beam Engines in a 'Engine house', which pulled up the Wagons up the steep incline using cables, if the wagon broke free then they would direct them in to a 'pit' see photo:- 

 

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A single line would run either side of the pit & have a point & then a line going in towards the pit so they could direct the run away Wagon into the pit rather the wagon crashing at the bottom of the line!!!

[LCDR]

It doesn't always have to be a trap point that protects a main line connection from sidings, but if the siding goes into a head shunt so that anything moving about in the siding is kept away from running out and fouling that does just as well, if not better./media/tinymce_upload/99e58cf842c6c3d8c689f868ab4f3c4e.JPG

 

Here the track going towards the left is the connectnion to the main line, and the points near the board crossing provide the protection.

 

Here a movement throught the points from the yard to the running line are operated by a ground frame released from the signal box, and all movements are controlled by hand signals , but in some locations where the points are controlled directly from the signal box there would be a ground signal permitting the move. However to avoid the signalman having to operate the signal for every move inside the sidings, the signal disc has a yellow stripe instead of a red one (or in the case of a colour light ground position signal, a yellow light instead of a red one) and the signal will only be cleared (rotated 45 degrees) when the points are set for a movement out of the yard. At all other times the signal is horizontal but because the arm is yellow shunting moves are permitted to pass it.

 

[JJ73]

Ok - so that is just another way of protecting the Main line then???

[Bulleidboy]

Useful information. I'm not thinking of fitting them, but when did they come into operation and were they just used for sidings? BB

[walkingthedog]

Thatis an incredibly informative picture LC. Thank you.

[LCDR]

Trap points were also used where a lower rated route joined a more important one. A case in point is the Crayford Spur which linked the Dartford Loop line at one end and the North Kent line  opened in 1942 as part of the War Effort and the junctions were controlled by Crayford Spur 'A' and Crayford Spur 'B' signal boxes.  Until recent years the line was used by freight trains and empty stock trains. Each junction was protected by trap points on both lines. Since the area transferred to the new Dartford Power Box, and passenger services started using the route eventually the trap points were removed. 

 

There is a set of trap points here at the north end of Down Goods Line 1 at Doncaster, these are a special type known as 'Wide to Gauge'  (they are just in front of the red 'Stop' board attached to a rail, placed there because there had been a derailment on these traps a week or so previously and the track had not been repaired.)

 

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Wide to gauge traps were used where there was a line either side and there was no priority to tip the runaway one way or the other. These were at the east end of Healey Mills yard and combined the role of traps with ordinary points. Note these required two point motors.

 

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[81F]

 @ Jimmyjames,

 

I too cycled the Cromford & High Peak trail possibly during the 1980s or 90s so the wasn't quite so much greenary around then aklthough all the track had long gone.

 

We Hired bicycles from Parsely Hay and cycled down the Tissington Trail before taking to the roads to reach the bottom of the incline you show in your pickture and then cycled back along the High Peak trail to Parsely Hay. I particularly remember venturing into the pit to examine the remains of the two wagons that were still in there. I wonder if this is still possible?

[JJ73]

@ 81F :- Yes I do believe that the remain of those old wagons in the pit are still there!!!