Help With 4-TC and Zen Decoder

[Kestrel757]

This might be a newbie user error type question:

I have recently puchased a 4-TC EMU (which is motorless, so effectively 4 carriages) and installed a Zen Black decoder.

When I read the CVs, the values are all zero although there are various numbers in the status/string column.  Resetting and writing values has no effect.   When I switched the unit to the main track, I could not turn on the lights.

I gave the decoder to a friend who had a testbed, and he could sucessfully read and write CVs, suggesting the decoder is fine.

I reinstalled the decoder into my 4-TC and again when I attempted to read the CVs, the values were all zero.

I reinstalled the blanking plate to check lights worked, which they did.

Because the lights work with a blanking plate, and my friend could read and write CVs on his test cart, suggests to me there might be a compatability issue between the decoder and Hornby Railmaster, but looking at other post, it appears people have successfully used the Zen decoder.

I can read and write CVs on the locomotives I have.

Any suggestions on what I might have done wrong, or ways to solve it?

[St1ngr4y]

Does your friend's testbed have a built-in motor ? With some decoders the CVs cannot be accessed unless there is a motor attached to the grey/orange wires.

 

Have you defined a loco in Railmaster? How are you trying to switch on the lights? Is it function 0 and if so, have you allocated F0 in the loco definition and included the words on/off in the description ?

 

Ray

[Kestrel757]

The testbed does have a motor.  I did hear about the decoder needing a load so I did put the 4tc and a loco together on the prog track.  Nothing in the documentation for the decoder says requiring a motor though.

I have definded a loco, and also tried to reads CVs directly (possible to do on prog track without defining a loco).

The lights are interior, which is not turned on by pressing F1 to F12 (they keys on my keyboard) or F0 by defining a box in the loco definition.

Lights on/off are selected as a dropdown box on F0, although having the description does effect the functionality (I know this as when I first programmed a loco I assigned lights to F1, but that just turned the engine sound on which is what I should have assigned to F1)

[96RAF]

The functions on the decoder are locked in unless the decoder is capable of function mapping which means being able to swap which butoon controls which function.

 

You can write anything you like in the RM description. The decoder can’t read so when you press 1 it plays 1. The important thing is the on/off else the sound/lights will just flash once rather than than play until deselected.

 

You don’t say which controller you are using as some controllers need a load for programming, Hornby controllers do not.

[St1ngr4y]

Your locomotive setup in Railmaster should look something like this ....

 

/media/tinymce_upload/6c69397bb6a45e12948566979a50409f.png

 

When you open up the large throttle for the locomotive, it should look like this ....

 

/media/tinymce_upload/12411698ab79e5fe24919c9431fc9648.png

 

You should then be able to use the grey F0 Lights on/off button on this throttle. You mustn't confuse the F1-F12 keys on your computer keyboard with the functions of a locomotive - they are not related at all.

 

Also, if you are only using the decoder to switch lights on and off, the only CV you would need to change would be the address.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ray

[Kestrel757]

Apologies for delayed response, as a new registree on the forum I'm limited to two posts a day.

Some good news I have managed to get the end lights to work (f0), but I can not find the function to work the interior lights.  (They work with the blanking plate in).

I've been through F1 to F28 and none work, unless I've misprogrammed it.  Not sure if I need to change a CV to map a function, still trying to get my head around the vague instructions both for the DCC card and the train itself.

All the leaflet talks about is underbody switched for DC operation (I have checked it's on)

While I'm about it, can railmaster programme trains/locos so the marker lights are on at one end only?

[St1ngr4y]

Apologies for delayed response, as a new registree on the forum I'm limited to two posts a day.

Some good news I have managed to get the end lights to work (f0), but I can not find the function to work the interior lights.  (They work with the blanking plate in).

I've been through F1 to F28 and none work, unless I've misprogrammed it.  Not sure if I need to change a CV to map a function, still trying to get my head around the vague instructions both for the DCC card and the train itself.

All the leaflet talks about is underbody switched for DC operation (I have checked it's on)

While I'm about it, can railmaster programme trains/locos so the marker lights are on at one end only?

 

Are you sure it should be switched for DC operation (as opposed to DCC operation)? Have you tried with this switch(?) off ?

 

Ray

[96RAF]

RM programs can send a DCC command to the loco decoder at a specified time in the programmed events. The decoder is the controlling factor as it has to act on that command - if it is within its capability. e.g. No good telling it to turn on the lights if no lights are fitted, etc. Likewise unless the decoder can operate the lights separately end for end by way of a function then RM won’t miraculously be able to do it for you.

What does the decoder manual say for the interior lights - usually they are operated by an Aux function. The loco switch is likely to a simple on or off, but if as you say if is labelled as DC then it is probably switching in diodes to control DC polarity to the interior lights. You may have to take the top off and trace which colour decoder wire is attached to the loco interior light circuit.

[Kestrel757]

The switch is simply an on-off switch for end and interior lights.  My reference to DC is that this is how you turn them on or off in DC operation.  In DCC operations, they have to be on, as per the manual, in order to be contolled by the DCC controller.  Sorry for the confusion.

Newbie question, when (if!) I find the colour of the wire connected to the interior lights, do I need to set any CV to control said lighting?  As mentioned earlier I am having difficulty making sense of manual.

I have found elsehwhere that other Bachmann units that are already DCC fitted, DMU in this case, use F8 for interior lighting.

(PS this might be last post today if still limited)

[St1ngr4y]

Newbie question, when (if!) I find the colour of the wire connected to the interior lights, do I need to set any CV to control said lighting?  As mentioned earlier I am having difficulty making sense of manual.

I have found elsehwhere that other Bachmann units that are already DCC fitted, DMU in this case, use F8 for interior lighting.

(PS this might be last post today if still limited)

 

It will probably be the type of decoder installed in the Bachmann units which determines which Fx is used for interior lighting. I have been trying to download from the DCC-Concepts website a manual for the Zen Black Decoder, without success. Can you quote to us a few words from the manual which do not make sense to you ?

 

Ray

[Kestrel757]

Oo I can post more than twice.

The DCC website is slow, but I think I might have found the answer.

The main manual, which is the same as the printed one provided with the decoder, is a little vague.  THis is mainly as it gives the description for CVs 33 to 42 without explaining them.

However I found on the website a supplementary manual for lighting control, which explains that the default for the green cable is on F1, etc.  So I now understand that by default if the interior lighting is DCC enabled, it be on one of the buttons F1 to F4.  I am hoping that because the lights are on with the blanking plate, off with the decoder it is, but does not explain why it did not worked when I tried it before.

Just to be sure, I can use ANY of the drop down descriptions for assigning a function as long as it says on/off (latch)

I see from CV47 I could program the AUX to come on with F0 too.

[St1ngr4y]

Just to be sure, I can use ANY of the drop down descriptions for assigning a function as long as it says on/off (latch)

 

 

When setting up the function descriptions for a locomotive, you don't have to use the descriptions in the dropdown list. You can type in your own description for a particular function if you wish, and add on/off to the end of the description if you want it to be latching. Be careful, however, there is a limit to the length of a description (I can't remember what it is), but exceeding it will cause it to be truncated, losing all or part of the on/off bit.

 

Ray

[Chrissaf]

Also note that changing the function button label does not change the sound that a sound decoder makes.

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For example, let's say that F3 plays a diesel loco 'horn'. Changing the F3 function button label to a 'whistle' will still play the 'horn' sound. The sound the decoder plays is hard coded into the decoder for that particular function. Changing what the function button label says in RailMaster makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

.

This will be the same if the functions relate to lighting functions. Say for example that F8 is 'interior cab lights'. F8 will always switch on and off the cab lights, regardless of whatever the button label says.

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The only text that makes any difference to the way a function button reacts is the 'on/off' text that Ray mentioned in his reply. Without the 'on/off' text on the button label, the function is automatically switched off again a few seconds later. With the 'on/off' text placed on the button label, the function locks 'on' until manually switched 'off' again.

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To change what a 'Function Button' actually does, you need a decoder that supports 'Function Mapping'. None of the Hornby decoders (except the Hornby Sapphire) support function mapping. Changing the mapping requires writing new values to decoder CVs. Whether or not the 4-TC & Zen decoders supports mapping, one would have to check the appropriate decoder manuals.

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[tony_forward]

My 4-tc lights are on f5. zen decoders MUST apparently be programmed on a programming track, not on the main.

i did my class 33 and the 4-tc at the same time on the programming track So the carriages and loco have the same code.

loco lights on 0, sound on 1, carriage lights on 5.

 

hope this helps.

[pd91223]

Apologies for hi-jacking this thread if I should've started a separate one. My problem is very similar with RM, Elink a 4-TC but with a Dapol Imperium-1 decoder instead of the Zen.

 

I know the Imperium-1 works ok (indeed I've tried 2 different ones with the same result). When I install in the 4-TC I can't read the CVs or change the loco address. I've tried a reset of the decoder (4 to CV8 according to the instruction sheet), Elink reports it's Finished but nothing has changed. I've tried unlocking the decoders just in case (0 to CV15 and 1 to CV16, again according to the instruction sheet) but again no change - when writing to CV15 it says Confirmed, but when trying to write to CV16 it says Confirm Failed. All of this is via the programming track from my Elink.

 

I tried putting my Class 33 on the programming track as well (just in case it needed a load) but, of course, the Elink just read the Class 33 CVs.

 

So, some questions:

 

1. Should the switches underneath for the lights  be set to off or on for DCC? Or doesn't it matter?
2. Is it worth trying to set it up using my Select instead - ideally I want a long address but a short one will do just to get it working?
3. Should I try setting it up using Track output from the Elink (still on the programming track) just in case there's insufficient oomph in the signal on Prog output? [Note that the Imperium-1 instructions clearly say that it should be configured on a programming track, but not what level of signal is required.]

I'm waiting for a response from Kernow but I'm not sure how helpful they'll be with an RM/Elink issue - there was no documentation at all with the 4-TC itself!!

 

PS I assume it's not necessary to have the complete 4-TC connected up on the programming track at the same time, as I currently have just the TBSK which contains the decoder on there?

[Chrissaf]

Should I try setting it up using Track output from the Elink (still on the programming track) just in case there's insufficient oomph in the signal on Prog output?

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RailMaster routes ALL programming and configuration data to the 'PROG A&B' terminals on the eLink. This is not a configurable option. RailMaster does not support any form of programming on the main track output, that is just the way it works.

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The Select does not use the same programming regime that RailMaster uses. I'm not sure of the exact programming mode that the Select uses, but it is more akin to POM (Programming On the Main).

[96RAF]

Select programs in Direct mode but at full track potential as it only has a Track output, not dedicated Track and Prog outputs.

Be aware that if you set an address with the Select then it can only be within the range 1-59.

A dodge for programming motorless vehicles is to clip a 100 ohm 2watt resistor across the decoder socket unoccupied motor pins to provide a pseudo motor load.

The Hornby Vent Van uses this method by strapping a hefty wattage resistor across the motor pins on the DCC socket with the vital difference that motor response is disabled in the decoder, so that you cannot apply throttle and cook the resistor in normal day to day use, hence why I say to clip the resistor across the socket only for the task.

[pd91223]

@RAF96 & @Chrissaf - thanks

 

I tried programming the decoder in the 4-TC with ID#4 using my Select but it just flashed 8 times everytime I tried. 

 

In the end I took my Class 419 apart and configured the decoder for the 4-TC in that. Lights now seem to be working as expected: directional lights on F0; internal lights on F3.

[96RAF]

There have been reports before that a particular make of decoder will program in one loco but not in a different loco, sometimes these locos are from the same manufacturer, sometimes different manufacturers. The only logical reason for this must be electronic differences in the main PCB of each loco is somehow affecting the decoder’s ability to program.

 

All very odd. Almost as odd as reports that loco A will not run unless loco B is on track or loco C reacts when loco D is activated, even though each are on different addresses.

 

Speculation also points to dodgy track bus wiring, track voltage, use or not of snubbers, etc. It would be interesting to bottom out on why these things happen.

[pd91223]

@RAF96

 

The big difference in this case was that the Class 419 has a motor. I already had an Imperium-1 working in it, so configuring another one there and then transferring to the motorless Class 438 (4-TC) made sense after your comments (thanks). It still points to an issue with configuring decoders in motorless vehicles on RM/Elink, but I don't know if this is a more widespread problem with other controllers.

Paul