Exetersteam Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 I have just invested in a DCC Concepts Alphabox 5 amp booster plus the Alpha power transformer. When I connected it all up all was good for about 15 seconds and then the Alphabox tripped out. After much investigation I discovered I could stop this happening by disconnecting the USB lead from the Elite to the computer on which I run Railmaster.Anyone got any idea what is going on here?CheersJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 I have never researched the Alpha Box product before in any detail. So not really sure what the benefit (if any) there is in using one with an Elite. I note that there is a DCC Concepts product information page specifically showing the Elite used with the Alpha Box. I've always found DCC Concepts marketing documentation rather lacking in detail regarding 'why' and 'how' type questions..My question is: How have you connected the Elite to the Alpha Box. I assume that you are using the Elite 'TRACK A&B' output (which I believe is DCC Concepts intention). Are you by chance [because the Alpha Box is termed a BOOSTER by DCC Concepts] using the 'BOOST' output of the Elite?.To be honest I have no real idea what the Alpha Box is supposed to be doing in your connection scenario. Because as far as I can tell, the Alpha Box is a 5 amp Booster combined with the ability to add Accessory Control to basic controllers. I can't see that neither is needed for an Elite as the Elite has 4 amp power as standard and supports the full 0001 - 2,048 DCC Accessory address range.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Clearly published on DCCConcepts web site.This diagram is talking to eLink so I would assume an USB connection to a PC running RM.There is also a document headed Cobalt Alpha Notes which is too large to post on here.You could ask Mr Johnson (ay-jay) about it on his dedicated DCC Concepts products Focus Forum, but this clash of parallel earths is often seen when more than one device is connected to what is not quite a common ground. /media/tinymce_upload/7c2fe23fde361f42eae605cdb45fcb63.PNG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 Thanks for this Chrissaf. I have indeed connected the Alpabox to the track output of the Elite as instructed by DCC Concepts. The point of using the Alphabox is really so I can use the Alpha Power transformer. I have large layout with over 60 sets of points all worked by DCC Concepts ADSX decoders and about 30 locos (some with sound) sat on the track. At rest the layout pulls about 1.3 amps with no trains running and the Elite is giving 14 volts at the track. With the Alphabox and Alpha Power connested I am getting 18 volts at the track.Given what you say about how the Elite is relegated to being a track interface box when it is connected to Railmaster, it seems logical to assume that in my scenario with the Alphabox, that I have two track interface boxes. I wonder if Railmaster can be connected directly to the Alphabox but I doubt it!I guess we will have to wait and see what DCC Concepts say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 RAF96, that is a good point about the eLink connecting via Railmaster. If that works with the Alphabox then maybe I should get one as I don't need the eLinks power output, just the Railmaster signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 I have large layout with over 60 sets of points all worked by DCC Concepts ADSX decoders..That definitely answers my question as to 'why'..These ADSX decoders have very high power up inrush currents. An Elite 4 amp power supply usually trips if more than 4 of these are added to an Elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 Yes. I have to switch them in in groups! But I like them as they power the frogs as well as the points motors and in the scheme of points decoders they work out relatively cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 If you run RailMaster on a laptop..You should be able to test out Rob's (RAF96) Earth loop theory by disconnecting the mains power input (unplugging the DC connector from the laptop itself, not just turning off the mains) rather than unplugging the USB lead and running the Laptop on its internal battery. If the Alpha Box doesn't trip in that configuration, then Rob's ground loop theory is likely to be correct.I had something similar on my laptop where I was connecting the 3.5mm audio jack to a powered amplifier that used a switch mode power supply and got a really annoying hum. Running the Laptop on battery cured it. I then put a 'ground loop isolator' in my 3.5mm audio lead so that I could re-instate mains power on the Laptop. Most equipment power supplies are 'switch mode' these days and these don't always provide good ground potential isolation. Your Alpha Box supply will be 'switch mode' too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 Sadly I can't try that as Railmaster is on a Dell PC not a laptop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 The more I think about this the more I am inclined to get an eLink (plenty on eBay) and run Railmaster with that. I could then use the Elite to run a seperate programming and test track facility not connected to the main layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 We have some progress! I bought a Hornby ELink and used the power supply to power the Elite. Suddenly things got better! Not perfect but definately better and the finger is poining at the Elite power supply and the "floating earth" theory I am now awaiting the delivery of the barrel plug to make up a lead to power the Elite from the Alphabox and take the Hornby power supply right out of the picture. Watch this space.I am also considering a separate power supply for an accessory bus the run the ADSX decoders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 You are lucky to get the Elite to boot on a 1-amp supply as its idle current is around 850mA so precious little left to do anything else.The way the 1-amp unit self protects is to drop voltage upon an overload or short. This manifests by a continual reboot of the host device. The 4-amp unit relies upon the host device to self protect usually by way of a resettijg fuse internal to the controller.From this you can see the 1-amp unit will fade before the controller reacts to an overload or short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 To be fair, I did also run the eLink with Railmaster through the set up with the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted May 9, 2020 Author Share Posted May 9, 2020 Progress!!Having succeeded in somehow trashing my Elite I am now running the layout via my eLink and the Elite power pack.... all good. But the big breakthrough is that I have installed a seperate accessory bus for the ADSX points decoders and powered that with the Alphabox/Alpha Power set up connected to the eLink. So far the Alpabox has not tripped out! (but I haven't connected all the decoders yet). It seems keeping the Alphabox away from powering the track has solved the issue. I have no idea why but the set up suits my needs. I now have 15.5v at the track with a "at rest" amperage of .4 with the Alpha set up dealing with the heavy decoder load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 Back to square one.Having connected all the decoders to the new accessroy bus the issue is the same as before. The Alphabox/Alpha Power set up copes easily with the large decoder load but when I connect the eLink, it thinks about it for a few seconds and then shuts down.My next move will happen when the barrel plugs I bought arrive. DCC Concepts have been clear all the way through that the problem lies with the nature of the Elite power pack. I had a furtle round my box of "stuff" and found a Lenz TR150 transformer so I will substitute that for the Elite power pack. Unlike the Hornby item the Lenz does not have an earth so maybe that may make a difference.I have also ordered a new Elite to replace my fried one. I will send the old one back to Hornby and if they can fix it I will then have a spare.Watch this space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog RJ Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 WARNING!!!!! The Elite is supposed to have a 15 volt DC power supply. The Lenz TR150 supplies AC, according to the spec. This will probably fry the Elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exetersteam Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 WARNING!!!!! The Elite is supposed to have a 15 volt DC power supply. The Lenz TR150 supplies AC, according to the spec. This will probably fry the Elite. Thanks Rog. I now realise that so it is back to the drawing board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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