type of signals for early 80's layout

[ace2507]

I am currently planning my layout which is going to be set in North West England around the early 80's, my question is would couloured light or semaphore signals have been more common in that period.

[Buz]

Hi ace2507

I would sugest that color light signals would be more common however there would still be quite a few semaphores about as well.

Railways tend to get maximum life and use out of everything and a semaphore signal would not get replaced by a colour light unless some sort of up grade was going on. Also be aware that there are two, three and four aspect colour light signals

Which type depends on how old the instalation is and trafffic levels and train speeds.

So I would sugest doing a little bit of research as to what might be the best for your layout.

Bearing in mind you will not be able to do full signalling A) your layout won't be big enough B) signaling is a fairly complex area and an area of study all on its own.

regards John

[LCDR]

It really depends upon which bit of the North West of England you want to represent. The West Coast main line from London to Glasgow had been equipped with multiple aspect colour lights as were the lines between Crewe and Manchester and Liverpool. This was all done when the lines were electrified. Little bits off of it were also equipped. The lines from Manchester to Glossop and Hadfield had also been equipped with colour lights in the 1950s.

 

However many lines were still controlled by semaphores, for example the Settle and Carlisle, the Cumbrian Coast and some of the lines radiating north west from Manchester. Blackpool had a lovely array of semaphores. 

 

So you are spoiled for choice. Think about what kind of trains you are going to run more often and choose your signals accordingly.

[ace2507]

Thanks for the helpful and informative replys, I have a plan for a four loop layout which I have done using Anyrail. All four loops pass through a large station at one end of the layout then as they head towards the other end of the layout the two inside loops split off from the main line to go to a rural station so I think I will use coloured light signals on the main line with some semaphores as the two inside loops leave the rural station.

[Rana Temporia]

I was still at school in the Bolton area in the early 1980s and the section from Bolton to Lostock was still semaphores worked from Lostock Signal Box, Bullfield West and the one in-between near Haslam Park whatever that one was called. The line that branched off at Lostock towards Wigan had 2 aspect colour light. The other line from manchester to Wigan (via Atherton) has semaphores. Once the colour lights were installed worked from the control centre at Manchester Piccadilly the signalboxes were demolished pretty quickly.  As mentioned above, it depends how you want to depict your layout and the actual location it's based on. You can have both, with the semaphores working and new colour light signals installed with a black board and white X over the lights showing that they are not in use yet. If you have semaphores you'll need appropriate signal boxes for the location. A lot of the ones near me including Bullfield West and Crows Nest junction were lvery similar to the old Tri-ang-Hornby one with the flat roof but with grey wooden bases instead of the brick base of the model. The Box at Lostock was a big brick built one of more traditional type as was the one near Haslam Park. 

 

I'm not sure when they replaced the semaphores around Bolton Station but they were Lancashire and Yorkshire pneumatic examples. There used to be a metal bridge that crossed the junction of the Wigan/Blackpool lines and the Blackburn lines and you could hear the hissing of the air controlling the signals. There was a brick built signal box below the bridge and a bigger one at the other end of the station. 

 

The viaduct across the Kent estuary from Arnside to Grange Over Sands on the Cumbrian coast line is still worked by semaphores. 

[The Doc]

I think there are still plenty of semaphore signals on the Settle to Carlisle route, not just in 1980s.  I've included 3 photos here - a colour light signal just south of Settle junction (where the route to Carnforth goes off to the left), the semaphore signals for the junction itself, and another semaphore approaching Settle.

So plenty of opportunity to have both types on your layout.

Not my photos by the way, taken from Google Street view off the A65, so probably only a few years out of date.  I'm sure the semaphores were still there when I was up that way last October./media/tinymce_upload/878689ef9af6a10c77f5aabc426138cd.JPG/media/tinymce_upload/d88da5e1113c7643a8db6781aa44fcc5.JPG/media/tinymce_upload/8b62f2a83569c9e6a1f824d344d8255f.JPG

[LCDR]

At some places sepaphores and colour light signals were worked from the same signal box. One of the most common applications was a colour light distant signal with semaphore for the rest, this was done to remove the need for fog signalmen at the distant. The powerful light was much more visible even in fog.

[The Duke 71000]

Colour light or semaphore in the 1980's.

That depends more on the type of line you are modelling. If its supposed to be a busy line with lots of trains then it is more realistic to have colour light signals, simply because the (current) MAS Multi-Aspect Signals (colour lights) were introduced way back in 1929, specifically to get around the problems of semaphore signals and their inability to pass lots of trains at intervals of less that 5-7 minutes ! 

 

Semaphore signals are only the bit of the signalling system the driver sees. In reality it is the "Block system" invisible and behind signals that sets the pace. So semaphores on Passenger or Mixed traffic lines were in virtually all cases restricted to the "Absolute Block" rule system.  This means that on a two track line it does not matter how many semaphore signals a signalbox controls, only ONE TRAIN (per line) was allowed to be in the WHOLE AREA covered by that signalbox. In other words trains could only be handed from Signalbox Area to Signalbox Area. Trains were expressly forbidden to follow each other from signal to signal, which means semaphores are a real fun killer on anything but gigantic model layouts.

 

Colour light signals (MAS) were intended to allow trains to follow each other from signal to signal, (minimum 3 aspects), to speed up the flow of traffic by providing more "Paths" per hour. But to do this safely the installation of "Continuous track circuits" was also a necessary requirement. In other words the track circuits guaranteed that every colour light would automatically return to danger as a train passed each one. This would also ensure that any previous signal could not change to a "clear aspect" until the train ahead had fully passed the signal ahead and a 200yd overlap beyond that. This is regardless of whether the colour light signal in question was an "Automatic", "Semi-automatic" or "Controlled" type.

 

If you want loads of trains its definately colour lights you need !

 

The Duke 71000     

[Buz]

Hi The Duke 71000

Are you forgeting the three position automatic semaphores that where used for a short period of time I believe there might still be the odd one of those about as well.

regards John

[LCDR]

Signalling is a very complex subject and one can find all manner of exceptions to the normal.

 

Take the matter of the number of trains that can be between two signals i.e. more than one train in a section. On passenger lines and for passenger trains the absolute figure was one, no more than this was permitted.

 

However on Goods lines a system known as Permissive working was occasionally applied. Here the signalman was permitted to allow another train to follow the first, but so that the driver knew there was another train ahead a signal known as a "Calling On" signal would be cleared instead of the main aspect.  One place where this used to be common was at Chesterfield.There were four tracks from Clay Cross, the two to the western side were passenger lines so normal rules applied, but the easternmost pair were Goods lines and it was not uncommon for a freight train to be standing at S9 signal waiting a path, and another freight would approach behind it. Permissive working was found on both semaphore and colour light areas.

 

And in stations Permissive working was permitted for passenger trains, in order that trains which needed to join up could be brought in to the platform, so there would be a calling on signal under the main aspect giving access to the station. To prevent a driver making an error the Calling On would only be cleared after the second train had come to a stand at it. At Faversham trains from Dover and Ramsgate would arrive and couple up to go forward to Victoria as one train. So the Ramsgate portion would run in and stop with sufficiaent room for the Dover portion to stand behind, and once it had come to astand, and the Dover portion had come to a stand at the protecting signal, the signalman would clear the calling on signal and the Dover portion would arrive. When I worked there we did this every hour.

 

Signalling is a very interesting topic often ignored by enthusiasts.

[LCDR]

/media/tinymce_upload/449330264a5c5cd29fbc3f9fa2bded4f.JPG

 

Under the main aspect of L243 are the 'cats eyes' (two white lights at 45 degrees) which is the calling on signal for Wakefield Westgate.

[LCDR]

/media/tinymce_upload/a7d5c7fe9a6d055af9ad93807c3ad121.jpg

 

The horizontal strped signal is a Shunt Ahead signal at Pelham Street. However the Calling On signal at other locations uses the same style of arm.

[The Duke 71000]

Hi The Duke 71000

Are you forgeting the three position automatic semaphores that where used for a short period of time I believe there might still be the odd one of those about as well.

regards John

No I haven' forgotton them, but as this was an attempt to introduce an American system of semaphore to Britain and was deemed after testing as "unsuitable" for Britain. i.e. HMRI did not like it on safety grounds.

 

I could of course have mentioned the LSWR air operated semi-automatic semaphores which were accepted and in general use into the 1970's. But these are exceptions to the general rules, and only confuse beginners to the delights of signalling. 

 

Obviously it is hard to gauge from the comments made on a web site such as this, the qualifications of those doing the posting. So I will reveal that over the past 40 years I've been a Train Driver, Signalman, Shed Master in charge of a fleet of steam locos, a qualified Mechanical Engineer (currently working with a Spanish Railway Museum to restore steam locomotives), and that I have worked for many railways all over the World. I have even, as you mention 3 position semaphores, given talks to Chicago & North Western Railway train drivers on the History of their 3 Position semaphores and interfacing these with Permissive Block working !         

 

 

[The Duke 71000]

LC&DR said, along with photos:

Under the main aspect of L243 are the 'cats eyes' (two white lights at 45 degrees) which is the calling on signal for Wakefield Westgate.

The horizontal striped signal is a Shunt Ahead signal at Pelham Street. However the Calling On signal at other locations uses the same style of arm.

 

My response to that is:

The above comments by LC&DR clearly reveal the imbecility of the Post BR rail network in Britain. Both signals have issues that would have concerned HMRI, and would have quickly been altered to comply with the then BR rule book.

 

The colour light signal L243 subsiduary calling on signal appears to have 3 lenses. Which it shouldn't, the bottom left lense should have been removed and blanked over, because this conflicts with the rule that any signal not showing an aspect when it is assumed it should, must be regarded as faulty and therefore a Danger stop aspect.

 

The semaphore signal at Pelham Street, is claimed to have a "Shunt ahead" subsiduary, and LC&DR also states that it is the same type as "Calling on arms elsewhere". How can one type of signal be used for two totally different sets of rules ?

 

The semaphore arm as seen in the photo uses a Calling on arm, which gives persmission to a driver to pass the main signal at danger, and proceed at a speed no greater than the visible line ahead allows to safely bring the train to a halt. For the purpose of moving into a section of line already occupied. The moving train must stop short by at least 10ft from the other train. Only passenger trains and light locomotives can be accepted. Freight trains are not allowed to accept this signal. This prevents types of trains with different braking characteristics from getting within the same section. It must also be added that this type of signal is only allowed to be used within "Station Limits" at a station where the normal "Absolute Block" rules are suspended within these limits. It is primarily for the purpose of joining two portions of a train together.

 

If this signal as stated is being used as a "Shunt ahead" signal, despite the fact that this system was officially abolished in BR days, it should have a large "S" also affixed to the arm. The reason is that a "Shunt Ahead" signal was used to allow a train to pass the Block Signal for the purpose of shunting. There also has to be a sign "Limit of Shunt" positioned at the point ahead of the signal which defines the amount of shunting space safely permitted. The Shunt ahead signal was also used for a similar purpose with complex conditions. For example the signal before a station has a "S" shunt ahead subsiduary, because the next signal ahead on the platform also protects a level crossing. It was forbidden to allow a train into a station if the level crossing was open to road traffic unless the level crossing was at least 220yds beyond the platform signal. If there was no 220yd overlap, but it was still desirable to allow a train into the station, while road traffic was crossing, the "S" Shunt ahead arm, was positioned on the signal before the station. When pulled off, it told the driver, you are authorised to pass the main signal at Danger for the purpose of drawing ahead to the next signal but the 220yd overlap is NOT available, so you must proceed at a speed no greater at which to bring your train to a safe halt BEFORE reaching the next signal.

 

The implications of the above with regard to current safety on Britains railways are themselves unbelieveable. Indeed as an ex BR Driver who has driven trains in many countries, not just Britain, I can honestly say I wouldn't expect to see such blatant disregard for safety on any railway except possibly in the Third World. 

 

The Duke 71000    

 

[JJ73]

@ The Doc :- In that 1st Photo - is that line stiill there / in use or is it that you can't see it b/c of the plants??? It looks like an old sigal has been randomly 'plonk' in a field!!!  😆

[JJ73]

Here are some more Photos of a semaphore Signal still being used @ Buxton Station in Derbyshire...

 

/media/tinymce_upload/a6f0802d820c61f4545b480ac07bcc68.jpg  /media/tinymce_upload/303ac70138301e3100836b2c6e8bd55a.jpg  /media/tinymce_upload/eedb150c5ced00854141fdb06e0bfabd.jpg  /media/tinymce_upload/73a4a27f311e4ee62e249b505d4820b7.jpg

 

The 2nd & 3rd Photo - I'd thought while I was there - I'd take a few shots of the Station it self - cos it is a really nice Station building (what's left of 1 Half - used to be 2 station side by side - 1 station got demolished (all what's left of this station is 1 small corner of its wall!!!) & the other got it's roof taken off!!!) & the last photo is again of the semaphore Signal with the Signal Box in the Back ground!!!

[The Doc]

@ The Doc :- In that 1st Photo - is that line stiill there / in use or is it that you can't see it b/c of the plants??? It looks like an old sigal has been randomly 'plonk' in a field!!!  😆

Definitely still in use - Settle to Carlisle Railway.  Although if some people (presumably not railway enthusaists) had got their way, it would have been closed years ago.

[JJ73]

Oh Yeah I heard about that - apparently it cost them ££££ to get it going again - had to did out a Cutting b/c it was all over grown!!! That line has a nice Viaduct which curse around a corner!!!