Hornby Elite Read Write Issue

[Steamplug]

Hi all, im looking for help with my Elite, its recently started returning "XXX" when i read CV's using my programming track. Ive uploaded a video to Youtube showing the exact issue:

Bit of background it has been updated to v1.44 and had been working fine for both control and reading/writing. I generally use it connected to my PC running railmaster.

I have restarted it in diagnostic mode and get an EE good message so looks to be not issues internally and i have also reset and reinstalled the bios but the issue is still present.

 

When i try to read CV's in railmaster through the elite i get 255 as a value against all the CV's and generally a message saying there was an error reading CV's, and like i said above when reading via the unit i get "XXX" when i try to read the address.

My first thoughts were a duff decoder so i tried another loco but have the same issue.

Second thought was the Prog track so i cleaned it thoroughly and tested the connectivity using my multimeter between the wires that go into the unit and the rails and no issues there.

Thirdly i thought maybe a unit issue so i dug out my eLink unit and connected to railmaster, run a CV read using the 2 locos previously mentioned and both read just fine using the same programming track.

Lastly just to make sure i swaped back to the elite to see what would happen and the issue was still there.

One last twist is the elite works just fine as a controller both stand alone and through railmaster and happily controls the 2 previously mentioned test diesels.

Last note its stamped a 2017 unit and i bought it in December 2018 new from Amazon so likely out of any warranty.

Help as im out of ideas.

Steamplug

 

[Chrissaf]

Every diagnostic test you have performed and the results you have observed and documented points to the 'PROG A& B' output of the Elite has gone faulty. This type of fault is unlikely to be detected by the start up 'self test' routine if the fault is in a non IC component. Dry solder joint or faulty output protection resistor in the last part of the 'PROG' output stage.

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Not the first Elite on this forum to report a faulty 'PROG' output.

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But before consigning the Elite to the faulty pile, be absolutely sure of a good electrical connection on the Elite. Take a short length of 'wet n dry' roll it into a small diameter tube. Flatten it so that it is about 4mm wide. Trap it under each of the spring terminals of the 'PROG A&B' output in turn and then work the Wet n Dry back and forth a few times. Use the Wet n Dry to clean the wires going to your 'PROG' track as well. Reterminate the PROG track wires to your Elite 'PROG A&B' terminals and try again. If still displaying XXX, then very likely an Elite PROG output fault.

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TIP: As a newbie poster on the forum, just be aware that the 'Blue Button with the White Arrow' is not a 'Reply to this post' button. If you want to reply to any of the posts, scroll down and write your reply in the reply text box at the bottom of the page and click the Green 'Reply' button.

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See also – further TIPs on how to get the best user experience from this forum.

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/tips-on-using-the-forum/

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[Steamplug]

Thanks Chris, I had a feeling it was all pointing to the controller.

I will certainly give the cleaning of the contacts a go though.

Am i safe in assuming that a Hornby repair is beyond economical sense?

Im sure i have also seen a teardown on these forums somewhere so i may attempt to have a look at it myself.

Will let you know how i get on.

Cheers John

[96RAF]

If Chris fix doesn’t bear fruit call HCC to see if they will repair it as some folk have reported duff PROG outputs being fixed.

Quote the batch date code when reporting it in eg. XX/17 as it may be important.

[Chrissaf]

And many if I recall correctly report the repair was done 'free of charge' even when outside Warranty (you still have to pay your sending postage costs). So well worth pursuing a repair option. Hence why Rob recommends mentioning the batch code. You never know, Hornby may be aware of a faulty manufacturing batch PROG output issue, hence the reported 'free repairs'.

[WilliamDavid]

Mine was classified as a ‘non economical repair’ by Hornby.

[96RAF]

If it turns out to be uneconomical to repair then here is my Teardown if you want to try diy.

http://www.halton96th.org.uk/page12.html

 

The likely failed component will be one or both of these (Q8 and Q9), readily available from electronics suppliers but I hope your soldering skills are up to it.

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[Steamplug]

Hi all thanks for all the great advice, had to wait before i could respond as im currently limited to 2 posts per day.

Bit of an update spoke to HCC via email today and they asked me to test the AC output from the Boost ports which by the look of it they are looking to rule in/out the fault in the post by RAF96. I tested and it returned 1.5V AC out of the boost port (dont know if this is good or bad).

@RAF96 had a look at the teardown and it looks beyond my soldering skills so got me thinking of other options if it is beyond repair. As i mentoned earlier i do have an elink lying around which got me thinking, is it possible to connect the elink to railmaster as a second controller and use it to do any programming work? This would give me the elite running trains via railmaster or manually and also the ability to programme/read via railmaster.

Then as my grey matter started to awake it got me thinking about the general set up anyway, assuming i can run both the elite and elink, if i were to run Prog and points from the elink (points via DCC concepts ADS and also DCC omegas) would this protect against any shorts as the frog polarity would then be fed from my elink bus whilst the main track would be fed via the elite bus?

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers John

[96RAF]

Controller A does locos, points and programming.

Controller B does points, no locos, no programming.

Either or both controllers can be an Elite or eLink.

 

The Boost port echoes the Track output but at a low potential. This output is used by a power and signal booster to run a second and separate power district. Another check you can do is monitor the Boost output whilst trying to program. As the relay clicks you should see the Boost output drop to zero, as these circuits are toggled  by the relay.

[Steamplug]

Update, did the test recommended by RAF96 the power does dip on the boost channel when the elite attempts to read the prog track however I tested the prog outputs at the same time and there was no corresponding signal/power on the prog outputs so sounds like a power switching issue.

Good news is Hornby are being supportive and have issued me with an RMA so their repairs team can take a look at it when they are back in the office.

All the best and thanks for the support, I will update In a month or so when Hornby have had a look and fed back.

John

[Alan K]

My Elite suffered the programming failure so I duly contacted Hornby. They issued an RMA and asked me to send it in which I did. It was returned quickly and I was initially pleasantly surprised that they had managed to fix it quickly. Excellent service I thought until I opened the parcel to find a note which simply said they wouldn't repair it as it is too old. As the date of manufacture is stamped on the botton of the case they could have asked for that information before asking me to package it and pay postage. 

I'm not sure what difference the age actually makes once the Elite is out of warranty - all the photos of the internal components I have seen show no obvious differences - certainly Q8 and Q9 seem to be unchanged. If they simply do not fix PCBs they shoukd say so.

My previous interaction with Hornby customer service has been quite contructive albeit long winded but on this occasion I was most disappointed.

As I was using the Elite as controller A and an e-Link as controller B for accessories the failure of the progamming function upsets that as it is not possible to program using contoller B. It was helpful to be able to use the control knobs on the Elite alongside RM but of course that is not possible if the controllers are swapped.

[Steamplug]

So just wanted to provide an update on this old thread, post lockdown and once the Hornby repair team got back to the office they took a look at mŷ unit and confirmed it was a power switching issue. Thankfully they replaced the unit with a new one so all back up and running.

Thanks for all your support and advice.

John

[ColinB]

I am going to get a lot of grief from the Hornby lovers, but why do Hornby rather than say the Elite is too old, just put a newer main board in and charge you for such, or sell you a new Elite at a much reduced rate. If I blow up a Zimo sound decoder or it fails out of warranty, I just send it back to YouChoos with £30.00 and I get a new one, LokSound do the same service. I imagine on the older Elites they probably used different components that you probably can no longer get. Although they look the same there may be subtle differences on the board layout that you cannot see. It could be that if the micro dies (that big thing with lots of pins) they may not have the equipment to solder a new one in, but again just exchange the board. I am sure most people would rather pay for a replacement board rather than buy a completely new unit and as a company you run the risk that they won't buy your product anymore. Having said that every time I contact Fleishmann about an issue I have with my twin centre controller, I get the aswer that it is too old and they don't support it anymore, so perhaps it is a model railway thing. Fortunately, last time it was just the encoders, which I got off EBay from China.

[96RAF]

The latest Elite mobos have a different back panel outputs connector arrangement so they would be into more that just a straight board change Colin.

 

I agree that setting up an Elite (and possibly other units) exchange service would be good PR as well as being much needed.