Triang Railways Operating Mail Coach Set

[porto]

Hi All,

 

Not long about I bought R.23 triang Royal Mail coach set. It comes with two bays for collecting and dropping off the mail bags. I didn't realise though that the track the set came with is much bigger than modern track. Has anyone converted this set for modern usage as the coach won't go over points either without derailing and falling over. or is it a case of putting it on a loop without points?

[STG]

The most common reasons for derailing on points, is that the back-to-back gauge is out.

You can check the back-to-back gauge using a tool, and then adjust the wheels of the coach is possible (might be easier to replace with modern equivalents)

[ColinB]

I think on this model if I can remember ( I have one in my old stuff) you cannot adjust the back to back adjustment on the wheels ( I will check though). I suspect it is more to do with the flanges on the wheel having too wide a taper, I have issues with some of my 1980's Hornby carriages. I think on this they have an axle that at passes through the bogie on either side. I never tried this but you might be able to push out the axle, remove the wheels and replace them with modern ones. The only issue is whether the axle sizes have changed. I would in any case suspect the Triang axles are bigger than modern Hornby so you might have to drill out the new wheels with a suitable drill. Perhaps someone on this site can comment if anyone does a fix, commercially. You can also buy (or you used to) buy track converters to convert to modern track. I still have about 4 of them from when I was going to use a Triang turntable, unfortunately it was noisy and broke, so I took the hit and bought a Heljan one (brilliant product).

[Rana Temporia]

This coach doesn't have a fixed back to back as the plastic wheels are moulded in two halves and move on a steel axle. Also, the flanges will be too large on modern points. It should be Ok on the older R612,R613 versions. You can change the wheels and use bearings to fill in the holes but depending on which version of the coach you have (I'm assuming it's a shortie red one) the plastic the bogies are made of may have become very brittle. It might be better to just keep that as a display model or as you say run it on an oval  with no points. 

 

The only version of this coach I have come across with modern(ish) wheels is a blue/grey one. They also produced a long blue-grey version of the long continental mail coach with silver seal wheels. You can get modern versions of the pick-up and delivery apparatus with ramps that will fit modern track but if you want one that is designed for modern track you'll have to get one of the current or recent versions that pick up and deliver on the same side. 

 

Personally I much prefer your version.

[96RAF]

I have the current Night Mail set and it does as Rana states have pickup and drop off on the same side. The pickup box is at the top and the drop off box is open at the bottom, both triggered by separate cams under the coach striking the track mounted markers.

 

The older two sided coach probably designed for when there would be a single track, whereas nowadays folk are likely to have twin or more tracks close alongside each other.

[ColinB]

I went and retrieved my one from the loft (I had been sorting my old Triang stuff to get rid of it). It is easier than I said, the wheels just clip in. So pull them out by slighly pulling on the bogie to release them. I tried a pair of Hornby replacement wheels in the bogie, they fit but are a bit loose but they fit and it looks like they won't fall out. The thing that is also interesting now I have the replacement wheels on one side of the bogie and the original Triang wheels on the other side there is about a 1 mm difference between the back to back spacing of the two wheels. I might buy some more replacement wheels and see how it runs.

[ColinB]

I measured the old Triang axle against the Hornby replacement. They are virtually the same size, so if you are worried about the loose fit with the replacement wheels, then you could take the wheels off the Hornby axle and fit them to the Triang. Obviously, you would need to set the back to back spacing, but you could do that against a spare set once you have replaced one axle.

[Rana Temporia]

The other version of a mail set I have (several in fact) is the Playcraft version which was HO and just operated from one side. There is only one door. Which collects from the top and then drops the bag off on the next circuit of the track. There are two ramps, one to open the door and the other to close it. The design appearance wise at any rate emulates the Hornby Dublo one. I don't know much about the Hornby Dublo operation but I suspect it was similar as Playcraft did seem to copy some of their items. I do know the Dublo one was electric, I don't know how or why when the others were passive/mechanical???

 

The Tri-ang one does work quite well and both the short BR version and the long transcontinental version have the same mechanism. The long one was also available in the Battlespace range in Khaki. I think most were a deep red with some in bright red with MAIL on the side and I think there was a blue version. It was also made in BR blue/grey with no buffers (I have one). The shorty version was in a few shades of maroon and eventually blue/grey. I think some very early ones were brown. 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

There are several versions of the Old R.23 Mail coach.

 

The original R.23 was the set for the grey Standard Track, the coach had the old Mk2 open loop couplings, and the sleeved axle split wheels with the open axle boxes.

 

Later sets for Series 3 track from 1958 were R.323, but the coach still had R.23 on the underside.

From 1959, the coach had the Mk3 closed loop tension lock couplings.

But still the sleeved axle split wheels, with the open axle boxes.

 

To fit the new Super 4 track from 1962, the pick up and set down apparatus and ramps were changed to be clip fitted to (not included) track sections, rather than being supplied with special track sections. The new set was R.402. The coach still had R.23 on the underside...

 

The coach from 1963 had pin point steel axle wheelsets, with closed axle boxes, like ColinB has.

 

The final R.23 type mail coach sets had a BR blue and grey coach, and the track clips for the apparatus and ramps were made to fit System 6 track. R.402m for modified...

[ColinB]

Just to let you know, the replacement Hornby wheels do fit on the old axles. So quite an easy fix really, it is just the cost of the replacement Hornby wheels that is the issue.

[LCDR]

The track pieces with the R23 mail coach apparatus made for Standard / Universal and Series 3 track were made with the original heavy gauge steel rail, and as such cannot be connected directly to modern code 100 track. However Triang made adaptor rails to connect Super 4 track to Hornby Dublo / Series 6 which can at a pinch be used.

 

Differences in length can make building a layout with both types challenging. The Series 3 straights are 7.25 inches / 18.4 cm, long but the Super 4 / Series 6 are 6.625 inches / 16.8 cm . Curves are different radii too.

 

The converter track is R476  was 2.875 inches / 7.2 cm long. The rail joiners swap sides too.

 

All in all it can be quite fiddly to combine both systems.

 

As already discussed the older wheel profiles are significantly different and are unlikely to pass through modern points without difficulty. Swaping wheelsets are possible but the open ended axleboxes will require the insertion of brass axle bearings (I use Romfords) to accept modern pinpoint axles. I usually fill the open end with bluetac  and paint it black.

 

Removing the thick steel axles can be tricky especially if the plastic is old and brittle as you will need to drift them out using a hammer and punch. One wheel will be loose, but the other is tight in the axle sleeve with a crimp pressed into the axle which holds the plastic. Choosing which side to drift from can make the job a little easier.

 

More modern bogies had sockets to take pin-point axles, but most of the old mail coaches, especially the red ones,  did not have these and had open ended axleboxes.

 

One good thing about them was that they were poilystyrene from the start. this remained fairly stable, at least in proportions, all the contemporary locos, carriages, wagons and grey track pieces were that horrible cellulose acetate which distorts and shrinks  terribly badly.

[ColinB]

If it is the same as mine as said previously, you can rewheel it quite easily. Now I have updated mine, my bigger question is did the Triang short coach like I have actually exist. I have a Bachmann one that is a full length coach, but my Triang one is severely shorter, also the corridor connections are offset rather than being in the centre of the end. With decent wheels with proper back to back spacing it happily goes round the railway without derailing on points.

[Rana Temporia]

I think the short coach was made that length to match the existing 6" Tri-ang coaches that were made at the time. I think some prototypes did have the offset corridor connections. 

 

The Playcraft one was nearer scale length for HO as was the Hornby Dublo for OO but both were still a bit short. The long Transcontinental version of the Tri-ang one was nearer scale length but I doubt if anything like that ever had a prototype, I stand to be corrected. 

 

It had great play value but as has already been stated you could only basically use them on a single oval of track as the apparatus was on either side. The two versions of the Tri-ang mail coaches must have paid back the development costs many times over as so many were sold over many years, and testament to the design so many still work perfectly. 

[LCDR]

The shortest TPO I can find is a LMS diagram 1793 Post Office Stowage van with two sets of double doors and a a net at one end. It was 50' over headstocks 53' 6" over buffers.  50 feet in 4mm scale works out at 7.875 inches or nearly 8. The Triang R23 mail van was 7.5" long. It was numbered M30224. The three diagram 1793 vehicles were LMS 3275 to 3278, renumbered 30210 to 30212 in1933. 30224 was actually a diagram 1974 vehicle which was a Post Office Sorting vehicle which was really 60' over headstocks 63' 8" over buffers.

[ColinB]

Just found a big disadvantage of my one where it collects the bag one side and trows it out the other. If you are using streamline double track then there is not a gap big enough to put the "pickup" hook, that is probably why Hornby changed the design.

[porto]

Thanks all for the comments. The set I have has the collect and drop off doors both at the rear of the coach with levers on the underside and the gangway offset from the middle at either end. Plus contains 2 stations with set track fitted for the bag to be collected and dropped off.

ColinB I will try your advice with changing the wheels and go from there.

LC&DR thanks for the part numbers for the track converters I'll look into that.

if all else fails I'll just create a loop with no points! I do have photos to show the item but for some reason it won't let me upload!

[ColinB]

The wheels are definitely a good thing to do, mine runs much easier. Because of the weight of the levers, it is quite a decent carriage.

[LCDR]

Hornby Dublo introduced a mail coach in three rail days which operated by electricity. Alongside the pick up / drop off point there was a fourth rail alongside the track and there was a pick up shoe under the coach. A solenoid in the coach opened the nets provided that you pressed a push button to energise the rail. 

 

The Triang / Hornby mail coaches (and the old Playcraft one) use a mechanical trip so the nets operate every time it passes the aparatus, whether you want it to or not.

 

I would have thought in the days of DCC that some more realistic method of operating the nets could be developed so that irt only picked up or dropped off when you wanted it to.