Model Railway Timetables

[keithp1707821843]

Hi All,

Well my layout is nearing completion now - just waiting for a few more items and a new loco from Hornby. That got me thinking - once the layout is 90% finished - never be 100% as I will add and move things - anyhow got me thinking once complete how do you run the trains? Yes I could watch them go round, do some shunting, etc, but that is not really a simulation of a railway. So after reading  a few articles I realised what I needed was some form of 'timetable'. Anyhow that got me thinking I wonder if anyone else has something similar? Could be an interesting thread?

My layout is a fictional village in Yorkshire, it has a single station to serve the local village, including the local Post Office it also has a line to a goods yard/ timber yard (the local industry) and a farm nearby which produces milk for transport. A small coal yard also collects coal for local use. So based on that I have produced a timetable that has 12 trains running, they cover passengers, an excursion train, a post train, goods and coal.

I tried it today and it took about an hour and half to check, work out where trains needed to be and also to run. I found it very interesting.

Anyone else do anything similar?

Keith

[Bulleidboy]

Hi Keith

I have not done it yet - but it is in the "plan" to operate a timetable. My layout "Wykeham" is a country town terminus, with a loco shed and turntable. The layout is end-to-end, and the main lines enter a tunnel under a hill and exit straight into a six-line fiddle yard - all lines terminate at another turntable. There is also a branch line wich run from the teminus to the other end of the board. The whole layout is "U" shaped and run around three sides of a 10x7 room. "Wykeham" is somewhere in the Hampshire/Dorset region. Also the main lines have had the 3rd rail fitted which allows for further variety in stock choice.

The service is mainly passenger, so my timetable, when up an running will have trains running from Wykeham via Bournemouth and on to London or the Midlands - for Birmingham you turn left at Basingstoke!

It was not unusual for trains in the south to split with some coaches remaining at Bournemouth while the rest of the train went further West - so for example a three coach train can leave Wykeham with a Merchant Navy up front heading for Bournemouth, where it would pick-up more coaching stock for the onward journey to London. This gives me the scope to run a number of different loco's and stock. Also Bournemouth does not have a turntable, so occasionally a loco will arrive at Wykeham without stock for turning, before heading back.

The advantage of the turntable at the end of the fiddle yard and using Kadee couplings with magnets under the track, is that the loco un-coulples (it does work), the loco is turned on the table and runs down a line kept free of stock - it can then be coupled on to the end of the stock it arrived with or other stock on another track.

I think having a timetable gives you time to think. BB

[Buz]

Hi Keihtp

An operations system can add a lot interest to a model railway.

Most of the famous in the model railway world had them, ranging from a simple sequence time table to some quite complex systems with fast clocks and paperwork.

Quite a lot has been in the model press over the years about the merits of various systems and how they work.

Including dealing with hazardous goods and how to marshal them into a train and dealing with perishables like milk and temperamental freight like livestock.

For me how ever after spending my working life dodging trains and dealing with train controllers who want it now, and you have twenty minutes to get the job done before the next train.

I use the no pressure simple sequence time table idea some times.

 But my line didn't get set up properly for it to really work the way it should, something that will have to be sorted one day if it ever does.

It means rehashing the fiddle yard which is under the village and not easy to get at.

regards John

[VESPA]

Not wishing to throw water on the fire of enthusiasm, I once went to a model railway exhibition in Rainhill. There was a layout run on timetables. Nothing wrong with that but there was nothing running for spells of 15-20 minutes. As a young 1960's trainspotter on the WCML in summers, when it never rained (ha ha) it was sometimes possible to see trains queueing at signal sets due to the amount of excursions and regular trains taking priority over them. A never ending stream of trains. I had the great pleasure of working (unofficially) in the signal box at Padgate Junction and even there we had quite a bit extra traffic from Liverpool,  Manchester and the Eastern region using the loop passing the back of Dallam sheds. (Even though it was the straight through as the crow flies route, with the Central Station route now the main line) It was all great fun at the time but we were told not to accept trains into our section if we had to use the distant signal 3/4 mile away as that was too heavy to operate. The signal man, looking back, was a bit idle spending hours on the phone and just giving instructions to us. I bet he would have been sacked on the spot if the powers that be found out, allowing two 14/15 year olds operate the box.   My next time in a box was at Bank Quay new power box on a great look around given to me by the station manager. What a difference from semaphore signals and the distance covered and the times between trains.

[keithp1707821843]

Sounds very interesting, I guess timetables for exhibitions are complicated due to the time they are there. For me, I usually only have a couple of hours, so would have trains running all the time. Nice to hear some other views though, I like the idea of hazardous goods!

Keith

[Buz]

Hi vespa

Just hope they don't run the original sunday service at a show because its in keeping with the layout no trains.

not having trains for 15 to 20 minutes at a show should not happen.

but often it does.

regards John

[Buz]

Hi keihtp

 The obvious one is fuel mainly because of the tank wagons with Shell or BP on them it did not always run in block trains like it does today.

I can't find my rule book off hand but you where required to have two 4 wheel or one bogie barrier wagons in front of it and behind it

These could be empty's or non flamable cargo that does not react with them and defiantly not ammonia nitrate based fertilizer  the same behind the fuel tankers.

There was also a set distance it had to be from the locomotive and guards van.so your short two tank train  just became five or six not including the guards van it all adds to the fun.

I hope you marshaling your fitted wagons directly behind the locomotive to form the fitted head of the train.

Fitted wagons are the ones with continuous brakes not all four wheeled wagons had them some where just piped.

Explosives is another one can't remember who makes the vans Dapol and Bachmann I think, not sure Hornby has made those.

The rules for those are very strict.

This is where the addition of cards to the system comes in the card has from to wagon type wagon number loaded empty special instructions it works better if your wagons do have different numbers.

regards John

[keithp1707821843]

Hi keihtp

 The obvious one is fuel mainly because of the tank wagons with Shell or BP on them it did not always run in block trains like it does today.

I can't find my rule book off hand but you where required to have two 4 wheel or one bogie barrier wagons in front of it and behind it

These could be empty's or non flamable cargo that does not react with them and defiantly not ammonia nitrate based fertilizer  the same behind the fuel tankers.

There was also a set distance it had to be from the locomotive and guards van.so your short two tank train  just became five or six not including the guards van it all adds to the fun.

I hope you marshaling your fitted wagons directly behind the locomotive to form the fitted head of the train.

Fitted wagons are the ones with continuous brakes not all four wheeled wagons had them some where just piped.

Explosives is another one can't remember who makes the vans Dapol and Bachmann I think, not sure Hornby has made those.

The rules for those are very strict.

This is where the addition of cards to the system comes in the card has from to wagon type wagon number loaded empty special instructions it works better if your wagons do have different numbers.

regards John

I will have to have a word with the Marshaller! Most of my wagons are simple plank, so any hazardous material is likely to be the local beer - as I am adding a small brewery building. Mind you at the moment I am struggling to find a suitable model. Perhaps Theakstons or Black Sheep!

Keith

 

 

[Buz]

Hi keihtp

Don't forget fuel also came in 44 gallon?? drums which would have been loaded into open wagons.

Try and find on line  Australian-card-kits.com if you can find them look for the Dongara flour mill kit.

I don't know if the Web site still exists I have not been able to re-find it.

The mill might make a start on a home built small brewery if it's still around to be found.

Along with a tall water tower with the brewers name on it it might make a start on a brewery complex

Or if it works for you could be boring and use it as the start for a more detailed flour mill.

but the trick is going to be finding it.

regards John

[VESPA]

What about the Metcalfe kits. I have the main factory etc to build yet and was going to make my own small Huntley and Palmers factory. I do not have room to model the real thing as it would take up all my land and house as it was massive.

[keithp1707821843]

Yes saw the Metcalfe kit, not tried card kits - but could do. The idea for the brewery is for a small local building, with barrels being loaded as freight. By the way do you need special glue for card kits or would PVA do?

[Chrissaf]

In my opinion you need a glue with a little bit more instant grab compared to PVA. PVA will stick the card eventually if held together long enough. There are specially formulated model card glues.

 

One that comes to mind is 'Roket Card Glue'.

[96RAF]

I use UHU glue which can be stringy. I had tried balsa cement, no strings and wuick drying, but it shrinks as it dries and distorts the corners of buildings.

[keithp1707821843]

Ok thanks.

I have downloaded a couple of free card kits, so will have a go at those first and see how I get on.

[Peter Stiles]

You'll find (or at least I do) a great deal of difference between a Metcalfe card kit and a download-print-your-own. Pre-cut, with strenghtheners and oh so clear instructions, it's a world of difference to a downloaded kit and worth every shilling.

I've tried other card kits, particularly ones that say they are Rather Speedy to build and it's always ended in tears. until I tried Metcalfe i considered card kits the work of Sauron. 

Glue: I ended up using No More Nails Wood Glue on my last card model, for strange reasons I'm not getting into now, and it worked a treat! YMMV.

[Bulleidboy]

DeLuxe Speed Bond is very good.

[LCDR]

Running a model railway to a timetable can indeed be extremely boring to onlookers if real time is strictly adhered to but people get round this by using a speeded up clock which compresses hours into minutes. 

 

Alternatively the layout is operated in a sequence, so that once a move is completed the next follows . The moves are printed on a sequence of cards and turned over in sequence. Very often the cards are punched so they can be held in a clip such as comes in the centre of a ring binder, screwed to a board. 

 

There is another technique for dealing with goods wagons where the fleet of wagons on a model are each allocated a card. These are shuffled and dealt out in piles representing each siding, and the wagons are then placed in those sidings. Then the cards are gathered and shuffled again, and dealt out again into the same piles, which then indicates the destination sidings, The layout is then operated to transfer the wagons by train to the destinations indicating by the second deal. Once this is completed this is repeated, until you get bored with it!

 

Marshalling of goods trains safely is a black art.  First there has to be enough brake force to stop the train. In the old days this was solely by the brake on the engine and the guards van only. Trains could only run slowly so the train could be easily brought to a stand at an adverse signal, or an emergency. Travel too fast and the brakes become ineffective!

 

As more wagons were fitted with automatic brakes (usually vacuum brake) goods trains could run more quickly. but of course the hoses between these wagons and the locomotive had to be connected and the brakes working. The wagons with vacuum brakes attached to the locomotive was called the 'fitted head'. Wagons with livestock and with fragile loads were usually marshalled in the fitted head.  Fragile loads might be carried in shock absorbing wagons. However plate glass in crates was carried in special well wagons which surprisingly was not fitted by vacuum brake!

 

Exceptional or heavy loads in specially constructed wagons (Weltrol, Flatrol etc.) which needed to be supervised by the guard were marshalled next to the guards van where he could keep an eye on it.

 

The need for barrier wagons between the locomotive and the guards van and wagons containing dangerous goods has already been mentioned. Care was needed to choose suitable wagons to be used as barriers . Open wagons with tarpaulin sheets were a definate No No because a stray spark from the locomotive might set fire to the sheet.This was especially true if the wagon was loaded with hay or straw, or if straw was being used to pack the load.   Ideally covered vans were chosen, or empty wagons. 

 

Wagons loaded with steel bars were not supposed to be marshalled next to tank wagons carrying compressed gases or poisonous substances.. This was because if there was a collision the bars may puncture the tank.

 

Certain dangerous goods were not permitted on the same train. For example explosives and nuclear material were to be conveyed seperately.

 

Once the safety aspects were sorted out then the train would be marshalled according to where the wagons were going.  This was done to make shunting as simple as possible.If the train was also picking up wagons as well as dropping off the marshalling needed to be carefully worked out so newly attached wagons would not get in way of wagons to be detached subsequently.

 

Unlil the 1960s most goods trains carried more trucks of coal than any other product. Everyone had a coal fire (or used coke or other 'smokeless' fuel) so a typical goods train would have plenty of open wagons carrying it, or empty going back to the colliery to be re-filled. Only a handful of goods yards had facilities to deal with petrol or oil, and usually the places where tank wagons were discharged had a fenced off area where it could be done safely.

 

Not all goods trains went into station goods yards. Trains of perishable goods such as fish or meat would be worked to sidings alongside the big markets or to special goods depots  alongside main line terminals. Perishable goods trains were normally composed only of vacuum braked vans which could run at express goods speed, and were frequently pulled by locomotive more commonly associated with passenger work. On the LNER the V2 2-6-2 was often associated with express goods work, and the name "Green Arrow" was a marketing device for the LNER Express goods network.

 

I find goods work much more interesting than passengers.

[keithp1707821843]

'LC&DR'

Thank you for a very interesting reply. At the moment my 'timetable' is just for me in the garage, so it is quite simple, but reading some of your post I can certainly improve the ideas. I like the idea of having a goods wagon stop closer to the Timber yard to collect rather than at a goods yard. Hadn't thought of that.

Thanks again.

Keith

[keithp1707821843]

You'll find (or at least I do) a great deal of difference between a Metcalfe card kit and a download-print-your-own. Pre-cut, with strenghtheners and oh so clear instructions, it's a world of difference to a downloaded kit and worth every shilling.

I've tried other card kits, particularly ones that say they are Rather Speedy to build and it's always ended in tears. until I tried Metcalfe i considered card kits the work of Sauron. 

Glue: I ended up using No More Nails Wood Glue on my last card model, for strange reasons I'm not getting into now, and it worked a treat! YMMV.

Thanks for that. I have to say I was rather reluctant to buy a card kit...but having read your post I think I might try one!  Especially if the instructions are easy to use.

[The Duke 71000]

Timetables &/or layout operational schedules for model layouts.

Step 1: Simplest method is to get your hands on some real old railway timetables for your layouts era. Preferably "Working Timetables" which show both freight, & passenger, not public timetables which reveal little. (There are a number of railway book specialists that often have many original timetables and other important railway notices that can help).  

 

 

Step 2: is to find a timetable within that publication of a mainline or branch that has a similar track layout to your model railway. From this you will find the service of the given line for a 24 hour period, which will give some idea of what could possibly run on such a line. (The signalling system available on a real life route sets the limitations on how many trains can be run, especially with single track branchlines !)

 

 

Step 3: If you really want lots of detail, you will also need railway internal publications (again available from certain specialist railway book shops). Such as EWN (Engine Working Notices) which give the detail of locomotive type and all its movements during a days work, of every loco on the Railway/Region. CWN (Carriage Working Notices) which give the details of what coaches/vans etc where allocated to any given service. If you are modelling the Southern Railway/Region you will also need the CWNA (Carriage Working Notices Appendix). This gives all the detail of what coaches were semi-permanently formed in the Southern's coach SET system.

 

In the steam era, a major reason why trains (whether freight or passenger) took longer to cover any route, was because trains did lots of things they do NOT do today. This includes passenger trains dividing or combining en route, sometimes more than once such as the famous Atlantic Coach Express. Adding or detaching parcels vans at certain locations. Changing locos often at regional boundaries such as Basingstoke (Western/Southern). Even "slipping coaches" at speed !

 

Freight trains were often "looped" en route to allow faster passenger trains to overtake them. The numerous types of freight trains in steam days included operational problems such as "Unfitted freight" (NO train brakes on any of the wagons) or "Partially fitted" (Some wagons with train brakes coupled behind the loco, with unbraked wagons at the rear & of course a Guards van.). Such freight trains had special requirements of necessity. Such as having to stop at the top of steep gradients before descending. To allow the Guard to walk alongside the train physically locking some of the handbrakes in the "ON" position, before the train could proceed again. This basically stopped the train careering out of control down the hill because the locomotive brakes alone would have been insufficient to hold a heavy freight train. Then of course there was the "Pick-up Freight". Such freight trains stopped at virtually every station virtually all of which had their own Goods Yard. The "Pick Up" freight would then shunt each yard in turn, delivering and/or collecting wagons as required. 

 

You will find a lot more interesting detail about operational methods, and how they are applied to a model layout, if you scan through my "BASINGSTOKE 1958-67 87ft X 25ft" pages here on the Hornby Forum elsewhere in this "General Discussion" section. 

 

The Duke 71000       

 

[LCDR]

Unless you are modelling a specific location working timetables are of negligible use. Very few railway modellers are  privelleged enough to have the space or the funds to build a realistic and accurate representation of an actual location particularly one where there is sufficient operational interest. It may be possible in a wealthy model railway club, or if you are a record producer, but the average Joe modeller will have an 8 x 4 board with an oval of track. and three or four locomotives to run on it.

 

As was said earlier watching a model railway run to a real timetable at an exhibition is tedious and boring, with gaps of many minutes often tens of minutes between a movement. To try and replicate that on your model railway at home will be the same. 

 

If you want to see what I mean have a look at the Rail Cam website, especially those locations where there are only two tracks passing the camera and sit and wait for the next two trains to pass. You will very quickly turn to another location. Even in the London Suburban area the interval between consecutive trains might be five minutes or more which lets face it on a model railway gives you time to put the kettle on and make a cup of tea! There is a concept of 'headway' which is the practical distance that trains can follow each other imposed by the length of the block section or the distance between two automatic colour light signals.  When I used to help write the ECML timetable we always aimed to keep trains running on green signals, which is three or four miles apart minimum, so on this incredibly busy railway there would be a minimum interval between trains of three minutes, and when you add in station dwell time and the differential between express trains, stopping passenger and freight trains the three minutes quickly becomes ten. Many less important lines there will be fifteen or twenty minutes between passenger trains, often considerably more.

 

Rather than spend a fortune on inappropriate working documents use your imagination and draw up your own timetable, and create a back story to explain why your trains do what they do. 

 

I did once visit a model railway in Kent where this couple built a model railway in their orchard. It was coarse scale gauge O and represented a short section of the Midland Main Line (LMS) on the approach to St. Pancras in the 1930s. where there were six parallel running lines (Up& Down Main, Up & Down Slow and up & down Goods) .  The operating section was in a large shed but through the orchard were covered tracks raised on legs in the form of huge loops. These were split into sections and in each section was a train. 

 

The couple ran it to a genuine :LMS working timetable and kept a train register so that when they went for tea they knew where to pick up the story again. They both had block instruments on which they signalled trains and all the signals worked. There was an  extra 'signal box' so that guests who knew how to could join in, but was switched out at other times. One of the signalmen who worked at my station told me that he actually learned signalling principles initially on that layout!

 

Even though they used a speeded up clock there were quite often gaps in operation when nothing moved.

 

I was informed that trains could remain hidden in the orchard loops for weeks! One of their major hazards was mice  who made nests on the track.

[keithp1707821843]

 

Rather than spend a fortune on inappropriate working documents use your imagination and draw up your own timetable, and create a back story to explain why your trains do what they do. 

 

 

Thanks for that. I would not buy working timetables as I agree at home it is pointless, my layout is small 6X4 so my 'timetable' reflects that. However just for fun I did search working timetables and found a web site where they have some for free. (http://wttreprints.uk/index.html).

Really I was just interested to see what other people do.

[Buz]

Hi all

Even that blue engine works to a time table of sorts.

regards John

[LCDR]

And "The Railway Children" theme playing in the background. 

 

Good to see Annie and Clarabel have got all their wheels at last, no longer those nasty little four wheelers!

[LCDR]

Just in case anyone may be interested, this is the train plan for the Hundred of Hoo Branch (Gravesend to Allhallows on Sea and Port Vioctoria) Weekdays for half year beginning June 1950.

 

Information included is the departure , the previous working, the carriages required, the class of locomotive required, the depot which supplies the locomotive and the locomotive and crew working number.

 

Departures from Gravesend Central

5:15 am to Allhallows, off 4:41 am from Gillingham, P&P set, R1 73D 228

6:38 am to Port Victoria, from sidings, P&P set, R1 73D 228

8:56 am to Allhallows, off 8:3 am from Allhallows, P&P set, C 73D 237

10:31 am to Allhallows, off 7:14 am from Allhallows, P&P set, R1 73D 228

12:58 am to Allhallows, off 9:52 am from Allhallows, P&P set, R1 73D 228

2:33 pm to Allhallows, off 1:38 pm from Allhallows, P&P set, H 73D 226, light engine from Gillingham at 1:45 pm, attach.

4:12 pm to Port Victoria, off 3:22 pm from Allhallows, P&P set, H 73D 226,

5:39 pm to Allhallows , off 11:18 from Allhallows, P&P set, C 73D 237

6:8 pm to Allhallows, off 5:5 pm from Port Victoria , P&P set , R1 73D 228

7:45 pm to Allhallows, off 6:50 pm from Allhallows, P&P set, H 73D 226,

8:46 pm to Allhallows, off 5:53 am from Allhallows, P&P set, set stabled during day, R1 73D 228

11:0 pm to Gillingham, off 9:39 pm from Allhallows, P&P set, R1 73D 228

Stock to sidings off 8: 52 pm from Allhallows, P&P set, H 73D 226,arr 9:26 pm light to Gillingham 9:42 pm

 

Departures from Allhallows

5:53 am to Gravesend Central, off 5:15 am from Gravesend Central, P&P set, R1 73D 228

7:14 am to Gravesend Central from sidings, P&P set, C 73D 237, off 4:40 am freight Hoo Junction to Allhallows after working 2:55 am Chatham to Hoo freight

8:3 am to Gravesend Central, off 7:40 am from Port Victoria, empties (arrive 7:57am) , P&P set, R1 73D 228

9:52 am to Gravesend Central, off 8:56 am from Gravesend Central, P&P set, C 73D 237

11:18 am to Gravesend Central, off 10:31 am from Gravesend Central, P&P set, R1 73D 228

1:38 pm to Gravesend Central, off 12:58 pm from Gravesend Central, P&P set, R1 73D 228

3:22 pm to Gravesend Central, off 2:33 pm from Gravesend Central, P&P set, H 73D 226,

6:50 pm to Gravesend Central, off 6:8 pm from Gravesend Central, P&P set, R1 73D 228

8:53 pm to Gravesend Central, off 7:45 pm from Gravesend Central (arrives 6:16) H 73D 226,

7:20 pm to Deptford, off 11:0 am from Deptford

(runs Tu, W, Th O 25th July to 31 Aug) formed of 6 non-corridor set 695, E1 73B 99 empties from Rotherhithe Road to Deptford. Loco runs light Allhallows to Gillingham and return for crew and servicing. Stock empty to Maze Hill, and loco light to B’Arms.

9:39 pm to Gravesend Central, off 8:46 pm from Gravesend Central, P&P set, R1 73D 228

To sidings, off 5:39 pm from Gravesend Central, P&P set, C 73D 237

 

Port Victoria

7:40 am to Allhallows off 6:38 from Gravesend Central, P&P set

5:5 pm to Gravesend Central off 4:12 from Gravesend Central, P&P set

 

Freight

 

7:55 am Hoo to Port Victoria freight  C 73D 234

10:5 am Port Victoria to Hoo Junction, C 73D 234

12:50 Hoo to Port Victoria freight  C 73D 234

3:30 pm Port Victoria to Hoo Junction, C 73D 234

 

2:55 am freight Chatham Sidings to Hoo, C 73D 237

4:40 am freight Hoo to Allhallows,  C 73D 237

6:35 pm freight Allhallows to Hoo, ,  C 73D 237

 

 Classes of locomotives are - R1 SECR 0-4-4T, H SECR 0-4-4T, C SECR 0-6-0, E1 SECR 4-4-0, Carriages - P&P set - 2 coaches of former LB&SCR / SECR / LSWR non-corridor stock converted for push-pull operation. Set 695 consists of former SECR non-corridor carriages kept for excursion traffic.

Depots 73B  Bricklayers Arms, 73D - Gillingham