Problematic front bogie - Princess Coronation Class 4-6-2

[Apples127]

I'm looking for some advice around overcoming an issue with the front bogie on the Hornby Princess Coronation Class 4-6-2 locomotive from the Royal Scot train set that I've just picked up second hand. The issue is the front bogie constantly derails even on flat and straight sections of track (haven't even bothered attempting to go through points onto another loop). It's like there isn't enough weight over the front of the loco or something as the bogie seems to very easily float around and derail. So before I start bending the bogie bracket in an attempt to adjust the front ride height I thought id reach out for some advice.

[VESPA]

Remove the bogie and run it free of the loco and with just a pushing gently motion see if it derails, If it does or the wheels run wobbly it may be either the back to back measurements are incorrect and can be adjusted OR there is a defective wheel on an axle. I had one some time back where the steel tyre was not seated correctly on the wheel. It just pushed on and was fine after. If it runs OK off the loco then put it back and check that all the wheels are in contact with the rails. Check also that it pivots correctly and freely.

[Apples127]

Remove the bogie and run it free of the loco and with just a pushing gently motion see if it derails, If it does or the wheels run wobbly it may be either the back to back measurements are incorrect and can be adjusted OR there is a defective wheel on an axle. I had one some time back where the steel tyre was not seated correctly on the wheel. It just pushed on and was fine after. If it runs OK off the loco then put it back and check that all the wheels are in contact with the rails. Check also that it pivots correctly and freely

Thanks for the reply. Prognosis: Took front bogie off and it runs fine, can even go through points to another loop (albeit very slowly). It didn't derail at all when running around an oval loop at slow and high speeds. Put the loco in a cradle upside down and put power to the wheels and they all seem to run fairly true without any noticeable wobbles. Refitted bogie and sat the loco on a flat piece of track and all wheels appear to be sitting on the rails. Pushed it along the track with my finger from the rear and the bogie wheels turned smoothly whilst all other wheels were sitting on the track. Track tested again and and derailed within half a loop on a piece of flat straight. The bogie wheels spin freely and without any wobble, and the bogie bracket swivels freely without friction. However I noticed that when sitting on the rails the diameter/wheel track of the bogie wheels is quite narrow and can move a lot from side to side, almost to the point where one wheel is barely on the inside rail when pushing the axle from side to side. I have one of those Markits gauge tools and the axle track is narrower than the gauge. Would pulling the wheels out wider help or is it an issue with the positioning/height of the bogie to the chassis or weight at the front? It just seems to skit along loosely like it has no weight on it at all when running under motive power. Thoughts?

[Anglia998]

I have two Coronation class locos. R2179 Duchess of Gloucester and Coronation R2206.

Both of these locos came with a choice of two front bogies. The wheels are of a diifferent diameter.

I quote from the "Operating and Maintenance Instructions"

"This locomotive is produced to very fine scale standards but in order for it to operate on track with curves of 438mm radius (Hornby 2nd radius) , the front bogie is fitted with coarser scale, smaller wheels. Owners operating on track with curves of 505mm radius(Hornby 3rd radius), or greater, can replace the factory fitted front bogie with the fine scale bogie supplied separately, in the pack. To do this, remove the original bogie by undoing the pivot screw "A" and fit the replacement bogie using the same screw."

An illustration follows.

This may (or may not) resolve your problem.

 

[Apples127]

I have two Coronation class locos. R2179 Duchess of Gloucester and Coronation R2206.

Both of these locos came with a choice of two front bogies. The wheels are of a diifferent diameter.

I quote from the "Operating and Maintenance Instructions"

"This locomotive is produced to very fine scale standards but in order for it to operate on track with curves of 438mm radius (Hornby 2nd radius) , the front bogie is fitted with coarser scale, smaller wheels. Owners operating on track with curves of 505mm radius(Hornby 3rd radius), or greater, can replace the factory fitted front bogie with the fine scale bogie supplied separately, in the pack. To do this, remove the original bogie by undoing the pivot screw "A" and fit the replacement bogie using the same screw."

An illustration follows.

This may (or may not) resolve your problem.

 

Thanks for the response but the set didn't come with another bogie. I also have an A1 Tornado, Flying Scotsman & Duke of Gloucester for which I've had these from new & whilst the bogie's are sensitive and derail easily running through points to change loops, they generally run fine on an oval at slow and fast speeds. I also have a lot of older model tender drive steam loco's and don't experience any issues with them but the front bogie's seem to be feel like they're a heavier weight. This brings me full circle back to the loco with the issue and the observation of the front bogie seemingly skitting along loosely like it has no weight on it &  very easily flicks off the rails.

[VESPA]

Sorry for the delay getting back but I would reset the wheel back to back if the guage shows a discrepancy. That simple alteration could remove the problem.

[JemBobs]

I have also had the same problem.  I fixed it by putting more weight over the front bogie.  Now it only derails if it goes too fast over points.

[Apples127]

Sorry for the delay getting back but I would reset the wheel back to back if the guage shows a discrepancy. That simple alteration could remove the problem.

Back to back reset fixed the problem. Cheers

[Apples127]

I have also had the same problem.  I fixed it by putting more weight over the front bogie.  Now it only derails if it goes too fast over points.

I might have to try that, did you use tiny pieces of lead?

[ColinB]

Weird that, I have several of these locos and they are probably the most reliable ones I have. They only derail on points if I run them too fast. For once I would suggest front bogie wheel spacing.

[Puffed Out]

Pardon my essentialy newbie ignorance. Isn't there a curved copper coated spring washer,(for tender driven electrical contact), under the rear pony of the loco, if that's gone 'flatish', will that automaticaly give the front more lift, when moving over uneven parts of the track, like points.

 

Just saying, and I maybe talking a load of rubbish. 😀

[ColinB]

I assumed it was the later loco driven one, if it is tender driven then it is a totally different issue. I think there is also a spring washer under the front bogie mounting screw, I found with my tender driven ones it made a hell of a difference if it was missing. You definitely need to check the wheel spacing on those, mine were all over the place.

[atom3624]

I've had one Coronation where one pair were tight against the bogie itself - not turning!!

 

B2B check definitely required.

 

Al.

[Apples127]

Pardon my essentialy newbie ignorance. Isn't there a curved copper coated spring washer,(for tender driven electrical contact), under the rear pony of the loco, if that's gone 'flatish', will that automaticaly give the front more lift, when moving over uneven parts of the track, like points.

 

Just saying, and I maybe talking a load of rubbish. 😀

Hi, good point but is this relevant for loco driven not tender driven? Regards, Mark

[ColinB]

At last, we now know it is loco driven. Now my ones don't derail (I have about 4), so it is not a design fault as with many locos. So assuming your track is reasonably level, there has got to be something wrong with the actual loco, which might explain why someone was selling it. Although I say back to back spacing on these it is a bit difficult to get it wrong as usually the front bogie wheels are capped. You need to do a complete look at the front bogie. Check that it is put together properly, next check the wheels on the bogie, they may be buckled, that would cause an issue, I had it on a Stanier tank, then check the front bogie is free to move. I suppose the next thing is to check all the other wheels for buckling. Sorry that is the best I can think of.

[Puffed Out]

Pardon my essentialy newbie ignorance. Isn't there a curved copper coated spring washer,(for tender driven electrical contact), under the rear pony of the loco, if that's gone 'flatish', will that automaticaly give the front more lift, when moving over uneven parts of the track, like points.

 

Just saying, and I maybe talking a load of rubbish. 😀

Hi, good point but is this relevant for loco driven not tender driven? Regards, Mark

Thanks for the enlightenment of the drive. 😀

[Apples127]

At last, we now know it is loco driven. Now my ones don't derail (I have about 4), so it is not a design fault as with many locos. So assuming your track is reasonably level, there has got to be something wrong with the actual loco, which might explain why someone was selling it. Although I say back to back spacing on these it is a bit difficult to get it wrong as usually the front bogie wheels are capped. You need to do a complete look at the front bogie. Check that it is put together properly, next check the wheels on the bogie, they may be buckled, that would cause an issue, I had it on a Stanier tank, then check the front bogie is free to move. I suppose the next thing is to check all the other wheels for buckling. Sorry that is the best I can think of.

Have thoroughly checked the front wheels when I reset the back to back. They run true and free without any buckle or friction. The bogie I have taken off and remounted and it swivels freely without any obstruction. Regarding the driving wheels on the loco I have put the loco in a cradle upside down and put power to the wheels and they also spin true without any obvious wobbles or buckles. The main thing that has improved it was the back to back spacing of the bogie wheels as now on a 3rd radius oval with long straights it's stopped derailing. However, on a wider loop made up of a combo of different radius curves with some straights in between them it's not happy on that and still derails. I'm thinking that a mini weight of lead fixed on top of the bogie assembly plate might be the answer as it just seems like it's all too light at the front and the bogie easily jumps up and derails. As mentioned in a previous note on page one of this topic, I have a lot of tender driven steam loco's and do not have any issues with the bogie's derailing. I put this down to the fact that the bogie assembly's on these models are heavier in general and don't skit around so much.  

[atom3624]

I find a little 'fine adjustment' of the mounting bracket can help - not saying it's guaranteed.

 

Sometimes bending it down until BEFORE it takes any weight off the drivers can help.

By this I mean, once done, you can still part-raise the bogie off the rails, perhaps not until the flange is clear of the rail when looking side on, but such that the drivers remain firmly on the track - full traction.

 

This will sort-of oblige the bogie to remain on the rails whilst not removing any hauling power.

 

Al.

[ColinB]

I know this subject is a long time ago. Since this topic was posted I have gained more of these locos. I found with the very latest and greatest there is no issue, but with the older ones with the movable pony truck such as the "City of Chester" there is an issue. I eventually traced it to the design of the front bogie, funny the tender driven locos don't seem to have an issue but these do. Looking at the difference between the "City of Chester" front bogie and say the "City of Edinburgh" the design is different but importantly the latter design contains a spring to keep the front bogie in tension. This seems to solve the issue. Sadly Hornby don't do the new bogies as a spare part, but if you can get them the latter Princess Elizabeth ones will fit if you straighten them out slightly. I also found the same issue with the previous design of the Princess Elizabeth, but in this case all you do is fit the later front bogie and reposition its mounting point further forward.

[Fearless Fifty]

I've got two of the Coronation class for Christmas (blue Coronation and red King George VI), beautiful streamlined models, but very disappointed with both of them.

The red one has this issue with the front bogie, looks like a dog cocking its leg - absolute mess.

The blue one runs beautifully in reverse, but sounds like a waste disposal unit going forward - which it cant do with slipping and making grinding noises, it moves hardly at all.

Not impressed considering the amount they cost.

[RDS]

@FFifty

If they were bought new, they unfortunately need to be returned to the Seller for replacement. Don't try to fix anything, you could invalidate any warranty.

[ColinB]

There has has got to be something wrong with those Coronation class locos, I have two of these and they work very well. Generally modern Hornby locos are very quiet, well at least for the first few runs. I criticise Hornby a lot but most of their modern locos are very good mechanically (we will forget the "Hush Hush" and its front bogie).